# Uninjured man first in line for Batman shooting lawsuit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 27, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588 "2012-07-27T17:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/241 "2012-08-01T19:19:59Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > it doesn’t matter how well or piss poor this plays before a jury because this [del]blackmail [/del] lawsuit will be settled out of court. Considering that the question of liability in this case has potentially several hundred other traumatized patrons waiting in the wings for their payday, I would guess that the theater’s insurer is motivated to take this case to trial so the question can be settled. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/242 "2012-08-01T19:25:43Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Considering that the question of liability in this case has potentially several hundred other traumatized patrons waiting in the wings for their payday, I would guess that the theater’s insurer is motivated to take this case to trial so the question can be settled. Depends on the insurer’s limits and duty to defend. If there is any decent case that can be made about lax security that even had a remote possibility of contributing to the ease with which the shooter accomplished his plan it could just dump its limits in a court trust account. This assumes an insurer can do that in CO and it removes any duty to defend the theater. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/243 "2012-08-01T19:26:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If I owned the theater. > > 1. I would put a light at the inside, and on the outside, of every rear exit (to the parking lot) door. Said light would illuminate when/while the door was open or ajar. > > 2. I would have an alarm sound, and remain on for the duration the exit door was open. Except then the theater lights were turned up as they are between movies. > > 3. I would hire a security guard, or more for a larger theater, to patrol the parking lot, and the lobby. I would equip him with a cell phone and a radio to his supervisor. > > 4. I would have an usher in the theater to aid people getting to and from their seats, and to supervise the audience. > > 5. I would have security cameras that were visible to the manager, that could view any alarms that sounded. So if a theater did these 5 things, and then a grad student with a backpack full of weapons waltzed right through the front door, into the theater, took out his weapons in the darkness and started shooting… You would say the theater was completely blameless, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/244 "2012-08-01T19:33:11Z")
I asked the same basic question several pages ago and never got an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/245 "2012-08-01T19:35:50Z")
Me too! ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/246 "2012-08-01T19:36:21Z")
Off topic again, but to show the absurdity of some of these cases against property owners, a friend just settled a case where a restaurant’s security guard (who worked there for years) was shot while on duty. He claimed the restaurant had insufficient security. Settled despite the fact the restaurant was in a very low crime area, the shooting was in broad daylight, there had never been so much as a single physical altercation at the restaurant in 5 years, and the guard pretty much wrote the restaurant’s security policies and procedures. Why? The guard’s injuries necessitated an above-the-knee amputation and the judge would not grant summary judgment. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/247 "2012-08-01T19:40:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > How long do you think it took the shooter to put on leg armor, one leg at a time, put on ankle protectors, one ankle at a time. Put on a tactical vest, then a crotch protector, then a neck protector, then a gas mask, then get his weapons and gas canisters from the car. Minutes? Long enough for the cops, who were 90 seconds away, to arrive and take action. What if a security guard had called the cops when he observed this happening? Even if a Security Guard had been in the theater, there is no guarantee that he’d have seen the perpetrator do anything. As you brought up yourself, perhaps he would have been distracted breaking up teenagers fornicating in Row I, one stroke at a time. The ONLY thing a non-armed guard could have done, would be to… call the cops at the first sign of trouble. When you have a few hundred cell-phone carrying patrons with the same ability, there is zero advantage in having a security guard. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/248 "2012-08-01T19:41:08Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > How long do you think it took the shooter to put on leg armor, one leg at a time, put on ankle protectors, one ankle at a time. Put on a tactical vest, then a crotch protector, then a neck protector, then a gas mask, then get his weapons and gas canisters from the car. Minutes? Long enough for the cops, who were 90 seconds away, to arrive and take action. What if a security guard had called the cops when he observed this happening? I thought he walked in already wearing all those things. They were thought to be a costume for the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/249 "2012-08-01T19:45:32Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > So if a theater did these 5 things, and then a grad student with a backpack full of weapons waltzed right through the front door, into the theater, took out his weapons in the darkness and started shooting… > > You would say the theater was completely blameless, correct? See, I overlooked a reasonably foreseeable event. My theater patrons suffered due to my negligence. I’ll probably get sued and I may well lose. But, starting tonight, I’m having my staff search all backpacks and large purses. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/250 "2012-08-01T19:46:35Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I thought he walked in already wearing all those things. They were thought to be a costume for the movie. Yes and no. He apparently exited the theater, dressed, armed himself and returned in costume through the door he had propped open. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/251 "2012-08-01T19:46:47Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > “What’s”? Seems fine to me, a contraction of “what” and “is”? Look at the line he was quoting. “cut short in it’s prime” ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/252 "2012-08-01T19:49:10Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > Why? The guard’s injuries necessitated an above-the-knee amputation and the judge would not grant summary judgment. I think the amount settled for would also be a factor. If you consider their attorney’s costs, the potential of having to pay the guard’s attorney’s costs, the potential bad press from the case (bad PR can be VERY expensive). That could justify a pretty hefty (not 2 million dollar, but reasonable) payout. Did they admit liability? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/253 "2012-08-01T19:51:03Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Even if a Security Guard had been in the theater, there is no guarantee that he’d have seen the perpetrator do anything. As you brought up yourself, perhaps he would have been distracted breaking up teenagers fornicating in Row I, one stroke at a time. What if he decided to investigate the propped open door while the shooter was dressing? Could he have closed it and called the cops? > [@PunditLisa](#): > > The ONLY thing a non-armed guard could have done, would be to… call the cops at the first sign of trouble. When you have a few hundred cell-phone carrying patrons with the same ability, there is zero advantage in having a security guard. What if our unarmed guard saw a car parked outside the back door, investigated it and found weapons and body armor in it? What if he saw the guy exit the theater and start donning the armor and gear? What if this had been observed on a security camera? Would a call to the cops a few minutes before the shooting started have made a difference? ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/254 "2012-08-01T20:04:09Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I think the amount settled for would also be a factor. If you consider their attorney’s costs, the potential of having to pay the guard’s attorney’s costs, the potential bad press from the case (bad PR can be VERY expensive). That could justify a pretty hefty (not 2 million dollar, but reasonable) payout. Did they admit liability? > [@Enkel](#): > > I think the amount settled for would also be a factor. If you consider their attorney’s costs, the potential of having to pay the guard’s attorney’s costs, the potential bad press from the case (bad PR can be VERY expensive). That could justify a pretty hefty (not 2 million dollar, but reasonable) payout. Did they admit liability? Well, since ya know there was no actual legal liability on the part of the restaurant, no. Snarky because this is the type of case summary judgments should work. It was amazing how well that place was run, and despite years of discovery, Plaintiff couldn’t even find a viable expert. The judge simply refused to rule on the summary judgment. Since the case went on for years, I’m guessing defense costs were well over $250,000. If it went to a jury and there was a hefty award, it would have almost certainly been overturned, but if you think trial costs, appellate costs, and cost of slim chance of surviving an appeal, that’s what it likely settled for. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/255 "2012-08-01T20:04:58Z")
What if, as is sometimes standard, the unarmed guard was, by procedure, not allowed to leave the building, as this would constitute abandoning his post, and was instead only allowed to note the presence of the car and call a tow truck if he couldn’t find the owner? ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/256 "2012-08-01T20:05:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Yes and no. He apparently exited the theater, dressed, armed himself and returned in costume through the door he had propped open. This (combined with new ban on face masks in some theaters) made me think he was already dressed: "Oates said the man was wearing a ballistic helmet and protective gear for his legs, throat and groin, black gloves and a gas mask. Jennifer Seeger, who survived the attack, said she had seen the man and thought his get-up was part of the entertainment for the film’s debut. She said the man first shot toward the ceiling, then began shooting at people. He reloaded during his attack, she said." > **[Gunman turns ‘Batman’ screening into real-life ‘horror film’ | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/colorado-theater-shooting/index.html)** > > The suspect in a theater shooting during a Batman film Friday had colored his hair red and told police he was “the Joker,” a source says. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/257 "2012-08-01T20:14:51Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > But, starting tonight, I’m having my staff search all backpacks and large purses. Well starting tonight, I’m no longer patronizing your movie theatre.\* [sub]\*Of course, with 20 month old baby at home, I’ve literally only seen one movie out this year. And that was The Hunger Games approximately two months after its release date. So, you know, suck on that movie theatre! You’re not getting my $6.50 in matinee money. But the point still stands. Be prepared to go out of business with that decision.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/258 "2012-08-01T20:19:09Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Well starting tonight, I’m no longer patronizing your movie theatre.\* Oh, I’ll go, let me know where it is and I’ll claim the guard stole a $50 out of my purse. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/259 "2012-08-01T20:33:45Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > What if he decided to investigate the propped open door while the shooter was dressing? Could he have closed it and called the cops? …Or the armed assailant could have shot him as he was attempting to close the door. And then we’d have a dead security guard on top of the other bodies. We can play this “what if” game all day! Sometimes people die, and there’s no one with deep pockets to JUSTLY blame. I know that that’s a litigators nightmare, but every now and then you come across a client who isn’t able to score a windfall of cash following a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588/260 "2012-08-01T20:36:10Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > What if, as is sometimes standard, the unarmed guard was, by procedure, not allowed to leave the building, as this would constitute abandoning his post, and was instead only allowed to note the presence of the car and call a tow truck if he couldn’t find the owner? Then one would ask whether the owner was negligent in restricting the guard from patrolling the parking lot? It’s not an easy question to answer, but the fact that the owner undertook to provide security means he’ll be judged on whether he did so reasonably. Did I rely on that guard to provide safety and otherwise place my self in a position I might not have had there not been a guard? I really can’t answer that question, it would depend on many other things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninjured-man-first-in-line-for-batman-shooting-lawsuit/629588.md?page=14)