# Uninsured people who oppose healthcare reform **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855 "2009-12-11T13:37:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/181 "2009-12-15T15:56:08Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > What kind of jobs do these people do? Are they talking about quitting altogether, or just finding other work in their field? Short of McDonald’s and some retail work, I am having a hard time coming up with occupations where the health insurance would be the factor tying you to your job, unless you’re in a legacy era job that picks up a much higher portion of the cost than is typical nowadays. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Pre-existing conditions, dude. That is my issue. I also am in a retirement pension structure, which requires that I remain insured through the state system or another approved system, and the cheapest is through my employer, which is $380 a month… out of my pocket, they pay some too. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/182 "2009-12-15T16:39:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Saving $164 billion over ten years vs. spending $1 trillion over ten years isn’t significant? Compared with the $350 billion _per year_ y’all would save with an efficient single-payer system… no, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/183 "2009-12-15T16:47:03Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Despite the uber-lefty/socialist leanings of this board, there is a whole lot of people in the US… It might surprise you to learn that this board is isn’t particularly uber-left. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/184 "2009-12-15T16:50:50Z")
> [@PhiloVance](#): > > HCR as you call is not really reform, it is a bunch of trade offs, most of which will not make any difference, will not stem the tide of ever increasing medical payouts, will not, in fact, do much. Why are we wasting all this time debating something that will do pretty much nothing in the long run. Shouldn’t we be looking at the bigger picture and perhaps debating the causes. No, we just want to politicize and pull talking points out of our ass. I’d be happy to debate causes. I’d be happy if there was an honest to god policy debate in this country. I’d be estatic if we took the UK’s version of health care and whited out “Kingdom” on all the statutes and subbed in “States” but that’s clearly not going to happen, so I’ll at least be content when we pass something, anything, and something positive happens. I have every confidence that when universal health care of some kind works in Norway, New Zealand, Japan, Germany, Belgium, United Kingdom, Kuwait, Sweden, Bahrain, Brunei, Canada, Netherlands, Austria, United Arab Emirates, Finland, Slovenia, Denmark, Luxembourg, France, Australia, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Greece, Spain, South Korea, Iceland, Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, Israel, China, Trinidad and Tobago we’re not talking about a fad or an unproven experiment. I’m fairly certain we can make it work in the United States too. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/185 "2009-12-15T17:02:31Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Compared with the $350 billion _per year_ y’all would save with an efficient single-payer system… no, not really. Since Obamacare is not an efficient single payer system, the comparison remains valid. > [@Sailboat](#): > > It might surprise you to learn that this board is isn’t particularly uber-left. Not compared to the European Socialist Party, no. Compared with the rest of America, they are pretty reliably lockstep liberal, only more so. [81 percent of Dems want Lieberman punished for healthcare stance](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/72127-poll-81-percent-of-dems-want-lieberman-punished-for-healthcare-stance-). On the SDMB, they want him to [die for it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=543848) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/186 "2009-12-15T17:08:37Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I have every confidence that when universal health care of some kind works in Norway, New Zealand, Japan, Germany, Belgium, United Kingdom, Kuwait, Sweden, Bahrain, Brunei, Canada, Netherlands, Austria, United Arab Emirates, Finland, Slovenia, Denmark, Luxembourg, France, Australia, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Greece, Spain, South Korea, Iceland, Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, Israel, China, Trinidad and Tobago we’re not talking about a fad or an unproven experiment. I’m fairly certain we can make it work in the United States too. You do realize, do you not, that health care costs are increasing faster in places like Australia, Korea and the UK than in the United States? ([Cite](http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/09/where_are_healt.html)). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/187 "2009-12-15T17:10:15Z")
Again, since Shodan apparently missed this the last time: 😃 If they included tort reform (which is a small but imho worthy addition to HCR) in the bill they would lose some number of Democratic votes and gain 0 Republican votes. It isn’t possible to get tort reform in this current bill because the Republicans don’t want to play ball. There are many changes that could be made to the bill but they would alienate one or more Democrats and since Republicans are acting like five year olds those things are left out of the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/188 "2009-12-15T17:12:21Z")
Interestingly, the UK and South Korea have the fastest-aging populations in the developed world. That surely couldn’t have anything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/189 "2009-12-15T17:15:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since Obamacare is not an efficient single payer system, the comparison remains valid. Don’t you find it frustrating that the hyperbolic opposition to health care reform in the U.S. is such that the most sensible model is too “out there” to even float? This would depress the hell out of me if I lived just 30 miles SE of here. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/190 "2009-12-15T17:15:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You do realize, do you not, that health care costs are increasing faster in places like Australia, Korea and the UK than in the United States? ([Cite](http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/09/where_are_healt.html)). > > Regards, > Shodan That’s going to be skewed by the fact that we pay almost twice as much as the next highest country. It gets harder and harder to grow when you’re already nine feet tall. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/191 "2009-12-15T17:26:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since Obamacare is not an efficient single payer system, the comparison remains valid. > Not compared to the European Socialist Party, no. Compared with the rest of America, they are pretty reliably lockstep liberal, only more so. > > [81 percent of Dems want Lieberman punished for healthcare stance](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/72127-poll-81-percent-of-dems-want-lieberman-punished-for-healthcare-stance-). On the SDMB, they want him to [die for it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=543848) > > Regards, > Shodan Come on Shodan, you are smarter than this. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/192 "2009-12-15T17:34:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If they included tort reform (which is a small but imho worthy addition to HCR) in the bill they would lose some number of Democratic votes and gain 0 Republican votes. why is it, iyho, worthy? It benefits absolutely no one except for malpractice insurers and possibly doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/193 "2009-12-15T18:06:36Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > why is it, iyho, worthy? It benefits absolutely no one except for malpractice insurers and possibly doctors. …and legitimate suffers who have been wronged to the extent of a complete life altering disability who are no longer able to be made whole because of a cap on damages. But regardless of that debate, it’s entirely possible to be upset (and upset directly at Democrats) that more isn’t being done to change health care costs in this country, while simultaneously understanding that the political environment that makes it that way forces their hand. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/194 "2009-12-15T19:00:00Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > **Mr. Smashy** , > You terms like “The root causes, if you want to think of them that way, of health care inflation are probably:” and you are quoting a dated study, but you are linking to it. Can you provide links? sry, forgot the link: [http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750](http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/195 "2009-12-15T19:02:44Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > It might surprise you to learn that this board is isn’t particularly uber-left. Maybe they are just the most obnoxious ones, the name-callers. I actually lurked here for more than a year before just recently registering so I have a good feel for its flavor. PS I bought Cecil’s first book when it first came out oh so many years ago (before the web was invented, probably), and every one since. I love his writing style. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/196 "2009-12-15T19:23:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Pre-existing conditions, dude. Pre-existing conditions are typically not an issue as long as you don’t have an extended gap (more than 90 days I think) of coverage. I have plenty of “existing” conditions and have switched jobs three times in the last 10 years with no problems. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/197 "2009-12-15T19:25:16Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > That is my issue. I also am in a retirement pension structure, which requires that I remain insured through the state system or another approved system, and the cheapest is through my employer, which is $380 a month… out of my pocket, they pay some too. How does this prevent you from switching jobs to another job that has insurance coverage? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/198 "2009-12-15T19:38:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, since Shodan apparently missed this the last time: 😃 > > If they included tort reform (which is a small but imho worthy addition to HCR) in the bill they would lose some number of Democratic votes and gain 0 Republican votes. Prove it. Let see some cites from Republicans who say, specifically, that they will not support Obamacare even if tort reform is included. > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Don’t you find it frustrating that the hyperbolic opposition to health care reform in the U.S. is such that the most sensible model is too “out there” to even float? This would depress the hell out of me if I lived just 30 miles SE of here. If the US government could make sensible decisions about health care, it wouldn’t matter if we had single payer or the current mix or anything else. There are two principles that are repeatedly ignored in health care discussions - [ul][li]Increased demand results in increased costs, and [\*]you can’t get something for nothing.[/ul]It isn’t the system that succeeds or fails - it is how it is administered. If Congress could cut Medicare payments to doctors, that would be an indication that they could make the other cuts that would keep Obamacare from spiralling out of control just like Medicare is doing. But they can’t. Therefore, Obamacare will turn into another bloated bureaucratic nightmare that costs ten times what it should. If they implemented single payer, it would be just the same. [/li] > [@Mr Smashy](#): > > > [@Sailboat](#): > > > > It might surprise you to learn that this board is isn’t particularly uber-left. > > Maybe they are just the most obnoxious ones, the name-callers. Actually, they are just trying to see if you can be shouted down. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/199 "2009-12-15T19:41:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, they are just trying to see if you can be shouted down. Ha, good luck with that :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/200 "2009-12-15T20:00:34Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > why is it, iyho, worthy? It benefits absolutely no one except for malpractice insurers and possibly doctors. The tort reform the CBO looked at did actually save some money and still allowed for damages to be had. This is what they were looking at: > [@](#): > > Several times over the past decade, CBO has estimated the effects of legislative tort > reform proposals. Typical proposals have included: > > [ul] > [li]A cap of $250,000 on awards for noneconomic damages;[/li] > [li]A cap on awards for punitive damages of $500,000 or two times the award for[/li][li]economic damages, whichever is greater;[/li] > [li]Modification of the “collateral source” rule to allow evidence of income from[/li][li]such sources as health and life insurance, workers’ compensation, and automobile[/li][li]insurance to be introduced at trials or to require that such income be subtracted[/li][li]from awards decided by juries;[/li] > [li]A statute of limitations—one year for adults and three years for children—from[/li][li]the date of discovery of an injury; and[/li] > [li]Replacement of joint-and-several liability with a fair-share rule, under which a[/li][li]defendant in a lawsuit would be liable only for the percentage of the final award[/li][li]that was equal to his or her share of responsibility for the injury.[/li][/ul] Looking at that specifically I find it worth the savings. But I could be wrong of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855.md?page=11)