# Uninsured people who oppose healthcare reform **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855 "2009-12-11T13:37:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/241 "2009-12-16T03:30:13Z")
The Dems may be “in charge”, but they are in fact more of a coalition government, that has to rely on votes from “democrats” like Lieberman (shudder) The media does not skew completely one way or the other - it’s never black&white of course. However the right wing commentators are certainly very good at what they do, and I really believe that scary, simple sound bites are quite attractive in the radio and TV media (this is what Beck, Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. excel at), whereas nuanced discussions and policy statements are boring as hell (and this is what the left wing “wonks” are best at). Sorry, I can’t name HWMNBN. I might attract him to the thread, and it would all be over. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/242 "2009-12-16T03:32:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > what obstructionism, EP? The Dems are in charge. They dont need one GOP vote. If they really believe in it, they can get it done tomorrow. You don’t understand. The Democrats are a coalition of liberals, moderates and conservatives. That’s why they’re in charge, they ran more conservative Democrats in more conservative districts. The Republicans are not in charge because they are running ideological people who walk lockstep. The Democrats aren’t of one mind, so of course not every one of the 60 is gonna love the bill. What you have to ask yourself, is why doesn’t even one of the Republicans in the senate break ranks and vote with the Dems? Don’t you know anything? You sure mouth off a lot for a guy who knows so very little. > [@](#): > > As for the ‘canard’ that the media skews left… well I’m just saying what I hear on talk radio. 😉 Seriously, IMHO I think that some go left and some go right. My point was that it’s pretty obnoxious to say that the majority of Americans have been duped, as if there’s **no** left wing comms machine to get the message out. assuming it’s a message that Americans are interested in. It’s easier to sell scary stories. Death Panels, cuts to the Veterans Administration, Cuts to Medicare services. All of those are lies that the right has broadcast. There is no “government takeover” of healthcare. That’s a made up story that has achieved wide distribution because it sounds simple. You’re a perfect example, you believe whatever you hear. > [@](#): > > PS who is the one who cannot be named? Cthulhu? Starving Artist. Who will be here shortly now that this thread will show up on his vanity searches. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/243 "2009-12-16T03:35:27Z")
**Lobohan** , you are off my Christmas list. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/244 "2009-12-16T03:37:06Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > **Lobohan** , you are off my Christmas list. Oh come on. Mr. Smashy is hardly ready for prime time. At this point this thread is just embarrassing. We need some big guns in here. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/245 "2009-12-16T03:41:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > So you wish to revise and extend your comments? I know **Lobo** won’t admit defeat, however, not in his blood. It’s really quite simple. You’re assuming something that you have no evidence to back up. \*\* > [@](#): > > Those without insurance are evenly divided on the question of whether their care would be better if the system were overhauled. \*\*There is nothing in that statement that says that people don’t “want insurance of any kind.” The statement is plain on its face: people who don’t have insurance don’t know if changing the system would mean that they’d get better healthcare. It’s a question of the power of reform, not a referendum on the matter of having insurance at all. To read that into the quote is overreaching by a significant measure. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/246 "2009-12-16T06:59:13Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > And **M4M** , you’d asked in post 109 about the longer-term costs. I have been looking for recent CBO numbers about that, and the most recent I can find is July. If you have a more recent link, please send it. [http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10400/07-26-InfoOnTriCommProposal.pdf](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10400/07-26-InfoOnTriCommProposal.pdf) Take a look at page 12. A sliver of what they are saying: Awesome cite, Smashy. Let’s work through it. 1. “Estimating the effects of major changes tothe health care and health insurance systems over the next 10 years is very difficult and involves substantial uncertainty; generating longer-term estimates is even more challenging and is fraught with even greater uncertainty. As a result, CBO does not provide formal cost estimates beyond the 10-year budget window.” That’s what was bothering me about the Reason link: I knew that budget estimates 10 years out were highly qualified. The speechwriter’s chart really didn’t capture that. But now we can move towards the substance: 2. “The starting point for such an analysis of the recent House proposal is our estimate of the proposal’s impact on the federal budget deficit in the first 10 years. As discussed in CBO’s letter of July 17, we estimate that the proposal as a whole would increase federal deficits by $239 billion over the 2010–2019 period.” Ok, for the first 10 years, we will add $24 billion per year to the deficit – that’s something we can afford (even though it’s tilted towards the later part of the period). After all, the US economy is about $13 trillion+ and we can reasonably expect it to grow. (Incidentally, thank congress for extending their budgetary horizons out for 10 years – they used to have much shorter ones. Obviously the practice doesn’t end gaming: it just limits its scope.) Ok, but what about long run prospects? 3. “In sum,relative to current law, the proposal would probably generate substantial increases in federal budget deficits during the decade beyond the current 10-year budget window.” We’re here to fight ignorance and we have to face facts: we are facing budgetary shortfalls down the road. Put into perspective, they are less than that of the Bush tax cuts, apparently, never mind the Iraq war. But they are there. Against that, what are the pluses? 15,000-45,000 die each year due to lack of health insurance, depending upon the study. Moreover, _the share that US spends on health care is the highest among all advanced countries_, while our life expectancy is only middling. A good part of the reason for that is that massive amounts in the US are devoted to getting somebody else to pay the bill. Community rating provisions in this health care legislation could take a substantial bite out of this problem. In a sense, the existing comparative inefficiencies in US health care have a silver lining: they imply that there is scope for cost control. [Interesting qualification:](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/administrative_costs_in_health.html)“The main question,” [Rick Kronick of UC San Diego] said, “is why are health care costs going up at 2.4 percent a year faster than GDP? And most of the answers to that question have nothing to do with administrative costs. The answers are that we do more stuff and have more technology. Even if we could wring administrative savings out of the system, which I’m all in favor of and would be a good thing, we’d still be facing the question of how to slow the rate of cost growth.” Health care is ~1/6 of the US economy. For all the naysaying about big guv, _private_ health care costs are growing somewhat faster than _public_ health care costs. [Cite](http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358). So let’s not compare current proposals to some magically perfect world: there are massive inefficiencies in the status quo which need to be addressed over the coming decade. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/247 "2009-12-16T13:37:37Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > what obstructionism, EP? The Dems are in charge. They dont need one GOP vote. If they really believe in it, they can get it done tomorrow. [What obstructionism?](http://thinkprogress.org/2009/03/31/republican-filibusters-skyrocket/) The use of the filibuster has gone up 300% under the present Republican minority. And since I’m in a giving mood, you asked earlier in this thread about Obama’s fiscal policy. Here’s what he did to address his predecessor’s failings: [Obama’s policies averted another Great Depression](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/11/21/business/21stimulus_graphic.html) [See also here](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/the-story-so-far-in-one-picture/) So, I’m confident that our deficit and debt picture will be much better for following somewhat more progressive economic policies than the ones that you and other conservatives would (and did) employ. Merry Christmas! ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/248 "2009-12-16T14:22:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you recommend this for everyone who has a job that does not provide insurance? > > Do you not see the weakness in that advice? If that were my advice, I would certainly see the problem with it. However, I was responding to someone who claimed that she knew several people whose SOLE REASONS for remaining at their current job was the insurance coverage. I was looking for examples of why this would be so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/249 "2009-12-16T14:34:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [What obstructionism?](http://thinkprogress.org/2009/03/31/republican-filibusters-skyrocket/) The use of the filibuster has gone up 300% under the present Republican minority. > > And since I’m in a giving mood, you asked earlier in this thread about Obama’s fiscal policy. Here’s what he did to address his predecessor’s failings: > > [Obama’s policies averted another Great Depression](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/11/21/business/21stimulus_graphic.html) > > [See also here](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/the-story-so-far-in-one-picture/) > > So, I’m confident that our deficit and debt picture will be much better for following somewhat more progressive economic policies than the ones that you and other conservatives would (and did) employ. > > Merry Christmas! a) Merry Christmas to you too. b) I’m not a conservative, at least not the way you mean it c) Well, if the NY Times says it… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/250 "2009-12-16T14:36:19Z")
It isn’t easy for a lot of people to get a job with benefits. Once they have one, they will not leave unless it’s for another one with benefits. I know someone personally that cannot get a job with benefits so she is uninsured. She works as a nurse assistant in a local hospital. If she was full time, they’d have to give her benefits so they give her 36, not 40, hours per week. She is far from unique. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/251 "2009-12-16T14:39:34Z")
**M4M** , thanks for the reasonable reply. Too bad others on this board are incapable of such a back-and-forth; oh well, as was quoted in some movie I saw once, a pint container can’t hold a quart - if it holds a pint it’s doing the best it can. It will be interesting to see the scoring of whatever comes out of Congress. The latest is that it’s been significantly dumbed-down (from the Dem POV). I know that 10 yrs is the best we can do given CBO’s latest guidance, but I can’t help but feel that any system that doesn’t start paying out until 4 years after passaage wasn’t engineered like that primarily to game the system. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/252 "2009-12-16T14:47:32Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > It’s really quite simple. You’re assuming something that you have no evidence to back up. > \*\* > \*\*There is nothing in that statement that says that people don’t “want insurance of any kind.” The statement is plain on its face: people who don’t have insurance don’t know if changing the system would mean that they’d get better healthcare. It’s a question of the power of reform, not a referendum on the matter of having insurance at all. To read that into the quote is overreaching by a significant measure. Tumble, do I have to draw a map for you? Go back and read my cites. See what everyone is saying: In many cases, the young and healthy do NOT want to buy insurance, at least beyond what Medicaid would provide them. They get it that if the Gummint takes over, that they will have to pay for this insurance, one way or the other. It is a tiny babystep to assume that that’s the reason why many of them don’t want this ‘reform’; because it will force them to ‘buy’ insurance (and note I said ‘many’, not 'all). The reform we’re talking about is not whether we use X-rays or use CT Scans… it’s all about insurance and the financing of care (2,000 bloody pages of it). ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/253 "2009-12-16T15:28:50Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > If that were my advice, I would certainly see the problem with it. However, I was responding to someone who claimed that she knew several people whose SOLE REASONS for remaining at their current job was the insurance coverage. I was looking for examples of why this would be so. It isn’t easy to find a good position with good insurance coverage these days. I can see someone sticking with a job they don’t particularly like so they can keep the insurance benefits. Especially if they or a dependent have ongoing/chronic medical issues. We have that exact situation in my family, though my wife and I like our jobs, so “staying for the benefits” isn’t part of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/254 "2009-12-16T16:51:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > a) Merry Christmas to you too. > > b) I’m not a conservative, at least not the way you mean it > > c) Well, if the NY Times says it… This would be a perfect example of where Mr. Smashy cowardly deflects instead of facing facts. He is a worthless whore gulping like a drying fish for Republiwang. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/255 "2009-12-16T17:03:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Tumble, do I have to draw a map for you? Go back and read my cites. See what everyone is saying: In many cases, the young and healthy do NOT want to buy insurance, at least beyond what Medicaid would provide them. They get it that if the Gummint takes over, that they will have to pay for this insurance, one way or the other. It is a tiny babystep to assume that that’s the reason why many of them don’t want this ‘reform’; because it will force them to ‘buy’ insurance (and note I said ‘many’, not 'all). Many people think you’re a simpleton. Many, not all. :rolleyes: You’re suggesting that young people shouldn’t get insurance until they get sick or injured. Don’t even you understand how stupid that is? By not having insurance and still getting treatment through Medicare they’re essentially getting free insurance they don’t have to pay for. By requiring them to have medical insurance they get the same benefit the rest of us do. Fuck a duck, you’re just unimpressive all around. You’d think there would be a redeeming feature in there somewhere. > [@](#): > > The reform we’re talking about is not whether we use X-rays or use CT Scans… it’s all about insurance and the financing of care (2,000 bloody pages of it). Again, you respond with a mindless talking point you heard on the tee-vee. The bill is 2000 pages because of the formatting with wide margins, leading and a large typeface. It has the same number of words (give or take) as Sarah Palin’s ghostwritten book. So please, shut your ignorant mouth about how many pages the bill is, kay? And finally, I’m still waiting for you to acknowledge that you have been shown wrong time and again in this thread. Unless you’re too much of a coward of course. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/256 "2009-12-16T17:23:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This would be a perfect example of where Mr. Smashy cowardly deflects instead of facing facts. He is a worthless whore gulping like a drying fish for Republiwang. I noticed that he had nothing to say about the data, and I even provided it in picture format so that it would be easier to grasp. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/257 "2009-12-16T17:24:26Z")
Take a look at what the National Review has to say about this bill so far [http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGMwMDk4YmIzZjYyOTMwNDRlMTA5YWE4NDEyZWVjZDM=](http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGMwMDk4YmIzZjYyOTMwNDRlMTA5YWE4NDEyZWVjZDM=) > [@](#): > > This legislation will not reduce health-care costs; the Obama administration’s own actuaries have just reported that it will increase them. It is unlikely to make Americans healthier: The evidence tying extensions of insurance to improved health outcomes is surprisingly weak. Insurance will reduce the financial anxiety of some people; but others will find theirs increased. Some will still lack insurance, but now have to pay a fine for the privilege. Some will be paying higher premiums and taxes. ouch ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/258 "2009-12-16T17:28:31Z")
> [@](#): > > The evidence tying extensions of insurance to improved health outcomes is surprisingly weak Yes, if you don’t bother to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/259 "2009-12-16T18:26:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, if you don’t bother to read it. Well, it’s NR saying it not me. But I thought it was interesting (especially in light of how some of the folks on this board can still be in favor of it, given the watered down nature - I’m surprised there aren’t more Howard Deans here). The only things I could find about that search was here > **[Insurance Status Linked To Cancer Outcomes](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071220082825.htm)** > > Lack of adequate health insurance coverage is associated with less access to care and poorer outcomes for cancer patients. The uninsured are less likely to receive recommended cancer screening tests, are more likely to be diagnosed with later stage... and here [http://news.health.com/2009/10/29/17000-child-deaths-linked-lack-of-insurance/](http://news.health.com/2009/10/29/17000-child-deaths-linked-lack-of-insurance/) which seem to contradict the editorial ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/260 "2009-12-16T18:33:48Z")
I have noticed that it is easier to augment and fix things that aren’t working up to their potential rather than just lob one huge bastard bill on the docket and try to get it passed. If they can get some of the stuff worked out (in my opinion), then the rest can be tweaked to get the most out of it later on. That is how I totally expected all of this to go anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855.md?page=14)