# Uninsured people who oppose healthcare reform **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855 "2009-12-11T13:37:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/81 "2009-12-12T03:04:00Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > IMHO, it’s a sign of real character when someone maintains his or her stance due to his view on the appropriate role of government, or the impact the costs will have on his kid’s generation (assuming he has some), or his skepticisms about the one-sided nature of the “reform” (ie, no tort reform) etc., even when his own personal situation would seem to dictate otherwise. For values of character that equal willful ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![gang\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f07891/32.png) [@gang\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gang_green)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/82 "2009-12-12T03:32:23Z")
I am sick and tired of people claiming the government is incapable of doing something as well as the private sector. If you paid out the kind of money to government programs that you seem to be willing to do to private industry, things would be fine. But noooo, taxes are too high, cut them, cut them! And then you bitch and whine and complain about how long it takes for the government to get anything done. You point at poorly maintained government facilities and justify even more tax cuts on the flimsy premise that something is being neglected, therefore it must be unneeded, when it actually is neglected because there’s no damn tax money to pay for it. Every time people complain about children who are killed by bad parents, they scream to high heaven that CPS should have done something. When a bridge collapses, the government is to blame because they haven’t properly maintained them. But let anyone suggest paying a bit more in taxes to help make these services better, and NO NO NO! GOVERNMENT IS TOO BIG! THEY’RE TAKING ALL MY MONEY! So now, we have huge budget deficits. A lot of this is due to unbudgeted initiatives, like the Medicare prescription drug benefit, and let’s not forget, two foreign wars. And I won’t get into how shady \*that \*funding is, with no-bid contracts, conflicts of interest, and questionable actions by some of those contractors. And for some people, the way to fix this is by cutting taxes even further??? Look. I really don’t like having to hand over 20% or more of my gross income, but at least I can see that it’s a necessary thing. I don’t like how some of it is spent, but overall, if you want to have an industrialized society, you gotta have taxes. And, to be blunt, you have to let the government run some things, simply because there’s not a lot of profit in it. Health care, in my opinion, is not something that should be handled solely by an organization whose main concern is profit. The health of your loved ones should not be susceptible to the vagaries of the market. Therefore, I believe that it is a service that the government could provide, and provide well, since there is no profit motive involved, just rules and regulations to be followed. I see morons whining about the government setting up death panels, and they don’t seem to recognize that the death panels have been in existence in private insurance since its inception. I recently saw an article where [Aetna was cutting off 600,000 policy holders](http://patriciashannon.blogspot.com/2009/12/your-request-is-being-processed-sam.html) due to poor risk. The government had nothing to do with it - Aetna came right out and admitted that while it had made a profit in the last quarter, it wasn’t as high as they wanted, so they had to cut some risk. Stop being sheep. Start looking around. Private industry doesn’t give a shit about you - it just wants your money. That’s why they’re so scared of the public option - they can’t compete and still make their fat paychecks at the end of every year. Government, on the other hand, while it’s far from perfect, at least doesn’t have the profit motive breathing down its neck. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/83 "2009-12-12T04:14:54Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Excellent link! > > Perhaps instead of solely blaming the admin, better to lay the blame at the (Democratically controlled) congress, Bush’s last year, and Obama’s first, all together. > > If you look at your article, it shows Bush’s last year was $450b in the hole, while Obama’s is (erp) $1.4 Trillion-with-a-T. Yikes. Who will pay that? Even after a few years, CBO is projecting Obama deficits between 6 and 800 b. That’s without healthcare adding $900b more (the last number I’ve seen). Plus… what? Cap and Trade, hammering the economy again? A second stimulus? Where does it ever stop? > > How can anyone defend this? How can we saddle the next generation (and the next…) this way? Talk about a lack of personal responsibility. Pssssst. The fiscal year for the federal government begins on October 1st, not January 1st, which means that your numbers are completely fucked up. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/84 "2009-12-12T04:42:18Z")
If the Democrat’s bill is not actually going to result in anyone getting any additional health care, then where is all that deficit-exploding money going to end up? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/85 "2009-12-12T05:03:03Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Also that quality will fall off (Government anything is almost always worse than private sector, in terms of quality. Go ask people who live on base). Why do you think that government will take over the running of hospitals as opposed to opening up an insurance company? > [@](#): > > Finally I worry about the impact of politics when it comes to making decisions about healthcare, much as politics crept into the decisions about the Stim bill and the near-takeover of both Chrysler and GM. I can think of certain medical procedure where the decision making is subject to tremendous political wrangling, and it cuts the deficit too. Starts with an “a”. > [@](#): > > So I guess I’m saying, you can either ration healthcare by price, or by Gov fiat, pick one. Well, government is capable of being _fair_ rather than being motivated by greed. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/86 "2009-12-12T12:17:51Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > My friends from the Navy tell me similar stories, where you would get worked on by whoever, and whenever, they felt like it. You had no choice, you didn’t necessarily get an expert in the procedure, and you frequently had to wait many months. I want some specifics. Which procedures? How long of a wait? Where were these “friends from the Navy” stationed/treated? Because otherwise, I call bullshit. The military health care system – both the medical treatment facilities and Tricare, which is the insurance program that covers dependents and those who don’t live near an MTF – is perhaps one of the most efficient health care systems in the country. You get the care you need, and you generally get it pretty quickly. If you need specialty care and there is no specialist available where you are, you’re either farmed out to the civilian community (where the government pays ALL your bills), or you’re sent to an MTF that can provide what you need. MsRobyn, Navy veteran and Tricare beneficiary. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/87 "2009-12-12T13:33:16Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Pssssst. The fiscal year for the federal government begins on October 1st, not January 1st, which means that your numbers are completely fucked up. You’re welcome. Duh, you don’t say. Seeing as I’m an exec w/a Gov contractor, I never knew that before… The article does reference that. Note that I give Bush full blame for his piece. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/88 "2009-12-12T13:53:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Tort reform is a fucking fantasy. It will save less than six billion dollars a year. You are being lied to because it is a simple drumbeat that the ignorant can dance to. [Cite](http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=389). Note that this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it, but were it to happen, the exact level would be very important to get just right. It’s pretty far from the panacea that the right pretends it is. > > The are addressing them now. That’s what the bill is for. Again, you appear to be utterly uninformed. > > They are taking care of pre-existing conditions and as I recall there are some provisions for increasing the supply of general practice doctors. > > Again, you show a woeful misunderstanding of the issues. By leveraging economies of scale and a huge risk pool we can do far better on a national basis than a state by state level. > > You are randomly not believing the non-partisan CBO because some paid liar like Glen Beck told you to? Look into it, you’ve been utterly lied to on every point. > > Ah, here is an actual real honest to god issue. You see, that is a reasonable thing to ask. The other stuff is just smokescreen lies you’ve internalized because you’re unwilling or unable to think for yourself. In answer to your question, the bottom lines for hospitals will likely fall to some extent. But, in the long run they will be better off because of the change of the incentives from being paid per procedure or test to being aimed at better outcomes (hospital re-admissions, secondary infections and so on). > > Shut your whore mouth and think for once, kay? Well Lobohan, again you say all the issues that the opposition has are lies, and all the issues that HCR addresses are golden. As we noted earlier upthread, those in favor of the Democratic plan suggest that anyone against them is deluded, does not have their wits about them, etc. For example, you say tort reform (which would theoretically eliminate or reduce ‘defensive medicine’) would only save $6b/year. I’ve been lied to by Beck et al (for the record, I’ve never watched Glen’s show in my life; although I did hear his radio show on my way back from a Va Beach conference one time, it had a very apocolyptic tone). This link here [http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/nov08/managing7.asp](http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/nov08/managing7.asp) says that > [@](#): > > in 2005, the defensive medicine costs would total between $100 billion and $178 billion per year. Add to this the cost of defending malpractice cases, paying compensation, and covering additional administrative costs (a total of $29.4 billion). Thus, the average American family pays an additional $1,700 to $2,000 per year in healthcare costs simply to cover the costs of defensive medicine. > > Excessive litigation and waste in the nation’s current tort system imposes an estimated yearly tort tax of $9,827 for a family of four and increases healthcare spending in the United States by $124 billion. How does this translate to individuals? The average obstetrician-gynecologist (OB-GYN) delivers 100 babies per year. If that OB-GYN must pay a medical liability premium of $200,000 each year (which is the rate in Florida), $2,000 of the delivery cost for each baby goes to pay the cost of the medical liability premium. The Moonies say it’s $60b/year. They admit that some numbers say $20b or $30b a year. Still an order of magnitude above your number. [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/29/defensive-medicine-costs/?feat=article\_top10\_shared](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/29/defensive-medicine-costs/?feat=article_top10_shared) I’m sure you have a HuffPo or Kos cite for your $6b number. So who are we to believe? Obviously you believe your guys because that’s your mindset. But I know the history of Government programs, and aren’t so sure to trust. But the bigger issue is that the Democratic Party has evidently refused to address it because they are in the pocket of the trial lawyers, in this case. Disgusting. (Of course, I could have said that **you** were being lied to by your friends on the left, when they say that tort reform wouldn’t save a dime, that you were a mindless robot just believing what you’re told. But I won’t.) As for Medicare waste and abuse savings being reaped, yes I know they are addressed in Harry’s bill. But I’m a bigger fan of making sure the money is there before we spend it. Every administration claims to use fraud waste and abuse savings to fund their pet programs. Those savings rarely become reality. And _anyone_ who has been around the block knows this (sry, how old did you say you were?). And I DO appreciate your taking the time to rebut them point for point, despite your telling me to shut my mouth, I’m a mindless robot, etc.. I guess we’re on opposite sides of this argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/89 "2009-12-12T13:56:27Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Why do you think that government will take over the running of hospitals as opposed to opening up an insurance company? > I can think of certain medical procedure where the decision making is subject to tremendous political wrangling, and it cuts the deficit too. Starts with an “a”. > Well, government is capable of being _fair_ rather than being motivated by greed. Well, these are more reasonable lines of thinking I think. I’ve seen other threads on this board, however, that whine and complain about Social Security not paying disability benefits, that people have to appeal because SS denies everything the first time around, that there’s a huge bureaucracy to try to penetrate. Get ready for that for everything I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/90 "2009-12-12T14:03:25Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > I want some specifics. Which procedures? How long of a wait? Where were these “friends from the Navy” stationed/treated? Because otherwise, I call bullshit. > > The military health care system – both the medical treatment facilities and Tricare, which is the insurance program that covers dependents and those who don’t live near an MTF – is perhaps one of the most efficient health care systems in the country. You get the care you need, and you generally get it pretty quickly. If you need specialty care and there is no specialist available where you are, you’re either farmed out to the civilian community (where the government pays ALL your bills), or you’re sent to an MTF that can provide what you need. > > MsRobyn, Navy veteran and Tricare beneficiary. Well, I’ll have to talk to my buddy who told me these stories over the last year and a half of carpooling. He was a Lt, ASW officer on a destroyer (the Fletcher maybe?) and CHENG on the Port Royal (yeah I know that’s a weird combination, but he had a weird career and MOS). He lived in Hawaii w/4 other guys in a house, he told me those stories about those guys’ issues and medical waits they endured. I have no idea their names. They were active duty, not VA. Sry I can’t do better than that. Your _bullshit_ call is authorized if that’s not enough. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/91 "2009-12-12T14:08:50Z")
OK, last post of the morning. So Joebuck, since you were the OP, do you still pit your friend? Do you not see some hint of altruism perhaps in his stance? This reminds me of the ‘what’s wrong with Kansas’ incredulousness from the card-carrying left; how do people _ever_ vote against their self interest? Is there not just the slightest possibility that HCR is seen as further Government intrusion into a system that is 1/7 or 1/6, depending on how you count, of our economy? Is there not any respect for the knowledge that our country is nearly broke, and we cannot afford another massive entitlement on top of the ones we already have? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/92 "2009-12-12T14:43:36Z")
“we cannot afford another massive entitlement on top of the ones we already have” Sigh… Thousands of insurance providers, each with numerous layers of bureaucrats denying people needed coverage, duplications of forms and filings on a massive scale, expensive end care while ignoring maintenance and preventive measure for millions, greed motivated insurance bean counters deciding access, drug company advertising driving costs sky high… Seriously, what you cannot afford is what you currently have, you can’t afford to NOT have healthcare reform. And it’s not an ‘entitlement’, it’s a reform to a system that is out of control by any measure. (I stand by my belief that the real reform needed is one in education that teaches people to apply critical thinking abilities regardless of their political persuasions!) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/93 "2009-12-12T14:45:43Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > So, it’s not debating. It’s silly mockery. It doesn’t lead to any insights or conclusions. You’re intelligent enough to hold yourself to a higher standard. Why not try to be a constructive participant in the debate? Save the horseshit for the halfwits who believe it. You tried to exempt the Obama-ssiah from any blame for his initiative. That is bullshit. Obama is responsible for this to exactly the same degree that Bush was responsible for the tax cuts. He is pushing it. His party controls Congress. What gets passed is what he and his party can do. Don’t give me any stupid shit about how I am not debating. You tried something, and when I countered it, you fucking chopped off everything I posted that directly addressed the issue and then whined about how I am not debating. Fuck that noise. Obama is responsible. The bills that get passed are going to be chalked up to his credit, or his fuck up. If you thought he was not capable of getting what he wanted done even when his own party controls Congress, you should have supported the silly snot. Or else the next time you start talking about the problems Bush caused, you can shove it up your posterior. Bush and the Republicans controlled Congress up until 2006. Whatever they did during that period is their responsibility. The deficit from 2000-2006 was the fault of Bush and the Republican Congress. The much larger deficit from 2006-2008 was the TARP bailout, and that was Bush and the Democrats. Now the deficit is higher still, and it is the fault of Obama and the Democrats. Stop trying to play this stupid, hypocritical dishonest game of “everything bad is Bush, but The Blessed and Holy Obama is pure”. He is the fucking President, and his party controls the Congress (God help us). If the deficit goes up because he wants to pretend that his party will vote for Medicare cuts and then they don’t, then that is his fucking responsibility, and don’t you try to pretend otherwise. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/94 "2009-12-12T14:48:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Not true. Shodan is stupid and remains willfully ignorant of the issues he argues for. > > For instance he doesn’t understand [basic economics](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11789541&postcount=12) but he can’t help flapping is ignorant mouth about it. This just means you’ve been slapped down hard, and you resent it. So much the better - if I am pissing off asses, I am doing my part to fight ignorance among those who rely on it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/95 "2009-12-12T15:29:42Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > OK, last post of the morning. > So Joebuck, since you were the OP, do you still pit your friend? Do you not see some hint of altruism perhaps in his stance? This reminds me of the ‘what’s wrong with Kansas’ incredulousness from the card-carrying left; how do people _ever_ vote against their self interest? > > Is there not just the slightest possibility that HCR is seen as further Government intrusion into a system that is 1/7 or 1/6, depending on how you count, of our economy? Is there not any respect for the knowledge that our country is nearly broke, and we cannot afford another massive entitlement on top of the ones we already have? Well, I myself am still of the opinion that the government should not only institute single payer, but bury the insurance companies, dig them back up, fuck their corpses in the ass, re-bury them and then piss all over their graves. But, seeing as how that probably won’t happen until I’m king of the universe, I have to keep dreaming. And I still do pit my friend. I think some reasonable concerns have been brought up on this thread, and some reasonable arguments made (including some made by you). I myself have a big problem with making it mandatory to have insurance, and that’s something I wish HCR’s critics had focused more on. The problem is my friend isn’t making a reasonable argument and he’s just repeating the same tired teabagging talking points about how Obama is out to destroy America and how HCR is just part of a grand scheme to turn this country into a Communist state. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/96 "2009-12-12T16:49:16Z")
I repeat the question I asked earlier: If nobody is going to benefit from HCR, then how is it going to cost money? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/97 "2009-12-12T17:27:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This just means you’ve been slapped down hard, and you resent it. So much the better - if I am pissing off asses, I am doing my part to fight ignorance among those who rely on it. > > Regards, > Shodan Or conversely, you’re an ignorant lying coward with no ideas and who’d rather resort to outright fantasy to pretend he’s won an argument when in fact he was made to look a gibbering fool. Either or, I’ll let the peanut gallery decide. Bitch. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/98 "2009-12-12T17:47:10Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I’m sure you have a HuffPo or Kos cite for your $6b number. So who are we to believe? Okay stupid. Re-read my post. I included a cite from the CBO. If you’d be more concerned with facts and not dredging up opinion pieces to support your desires you might, just might learn something. > [@](#): > > As for Medicare waste and abuse savings being reaped, yes I know they are addressed in Harry’s bill. But I’m a bigger fan of making sure the money is there before we spend it. Every administration claims to use fraud waste and abuse savings to fund their pet programs. Those savings rarely become reality. And _anyone_ who has been around the block knows this (sry, how old did you say you were?). Again the bill will spell out where the money is coming from. The CBO scored it and agrees with their projections. If you don’t, well you’re just a stupid fuck who can’t be bothered to look into stuff before you start shrieking about \*teh librulz!!!1 \* > [@](#): > > And I DO appreciate your taking the time to rebut them point for point, despite your telling me to shut my mouth, I’m a mindless robot, etc.. I guess we’re on opposite sides of this argument. Shut up and read. The problem I have with you is that you’re angry over phantoms. If you’d take the time to look into the issues, you’d find that you’re simply wrong. But you won’t take the time because you’re so invested in your bullshit ideology that you might as well be a cultist. It’s a fucking shame when someone moderately bright sublimates their intellect and replaces it with dogma. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/99 "2009-12-12T18:31:05Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > “we cannot afford another massive entitlement on top of the ones we already have” > > Sigh… > > Thousands of insurance providers, each with numerous layers of bureaucrats denying people needed coverage, duplications of forms and filings on a massive scale, expensive end care while ignoring maintenance and preventive measure for millions, greed motivated insurance bean counters deciding access, drug company advertising driving costs sky high… > > Seriously, what you cannot afford is what you currently have, you can’t afford to NOT have healthcare reform. > > And it’s not an ‘entitlement’, it’s a reform to a system that is out of control by any measure. > > (I stand by my belief that the real reform needed is one in education that teaches people to apply critical thinking abilities regardless of their political persuasions!) You’d probably be surprised that I agree with most of what you say. I think that electronic health records are coming which will help a lot with the paperwork bureaucracy (in fact, I’m certain my company is big-time going after some of those deals, including HIEs). I also agree that people need to forget where they are politically and look at things critically. I was hoping to get more of that on this board, but my year+ lurk time has made me cynical for those chances. Finally, I do have to disagree with you: there’s no doubt in my mind that the Medicare buy-in will be subsidized, if not now then eventually. This expands what is clearly the most harmful entitlement, budget-wise… and it’s not like Medicare is on sound fiscal ground even now. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855/100 "2009-12-12T18:33:41Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > and some reasonable arguments made (including some made by you) Maybe the first time I’ve been called reasonable… :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uninsured-people-who-oppose-healthcare-reform/520855.md?page=6)