# unions=bad; equal pay for women=good **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 23, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364 "2015-04-23T15:37:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/21 "2015-04-24T17:59:34Z")
If you look at pay rates for college educated women and men _doing the same job_, the gap in pay is pretty small. It’s still there, but it’s nowhere near 25% [Cite.](http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap) The societal gap in pay largely has to do with factors like: 1. Women are more likely to work in fields that are not well-compensated. 2. Women are much less likely to work in upper management (the glass ceiling). 3. Women are more likely to work in jobs that allow them to be primary care-givers for children. Obviously, all of those factors do have a component of gender bias in them. Societally, we expect women to take care of children and the home, and they tend to accept jobs that let them. Competitiveness and strong leadership, traits that make men successful in business and negotiations, are often judged to be negative in women (shrill, bossy, etc.). But it’s generally not as simple as looking for people who are doing the same job and noticing that the man get paid 20% more. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/22 "2015-04-24T18:31:42Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Air traffic controllers excepted, of course. No, there was no exception. They were (and are) perfectly free to form a union. They just have to abide by the law and their contract. The air traffic controllers did neither. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/23 "2015-04-24T19:24:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If women are significantly underpaid, then any company that hires men is making a serious mistake - they can get equally qualified women for less money. > > Right, liberals? > > Regards, > Shodan Nah, the women will all get pregnant and leave. Or may. Or they don’t speak up enough. Or too much. Always good reasons to discriminate. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/24 "2015-04-24T19:28:05Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > People should be paid for their ability to do work, regardless of gender. If there is a job that for some reason women can’t do as well then they shouldn’t get paid as well. Should software engineers all be paid the same despite some being smarter than others? Which job is that? But surely you don’t believe that even in a single field pay is directly proportional to ability. People who get hired at different times may get more money because of a tight job market, as entry salaries often rise faster than wages for the already employed. Not to mention that what makes a better software engineer is subjective. I’ve done enough performance reviews and salary reviews to know this. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/25 "2015-04-28T12:32:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Nah, the women will all get pregnant and leave. Or may. IOW your idea that women, in general, are equally qualified and the pay difference is due to discrimination is wrong. > [@](#): > > Or they don’t speak up enough. Or too much. Always good reasons to discriminate. Why would it be a disadvantage to hire women who don’t speak up for themselves? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/26 "2015-04-28T13:05:36Z")
I think the reference is to studies, which I haven’t read and cannot vouch for, that show that women who speak up for themselves are seen as uppity or something, whereas such behavior is looked upon favorably in men. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/27 "2015-04-28T13:19:09Z")
> [@CC](#): > > Lots of people these days talking about the need for women to get equal pay for doing the same jobs as men. But this appears in many cases to be just lip service (no pun intended), because often these are the same people who rail against unions. I have to question your basic premise here. I can’t speak to the people you might know personally, but I don’t think I’ve ever met or even heard of someone who was vocal about the need to do something about the gender gap in salaries but also vocal in their opposition to unions. There are probably plenty of people who care strongly about only one of these issues and don’t have much to say about the other, but I have not encountered “Lots of people these days talking about the need for women to get equal pay” who also “rail against unions.” ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/28 "2015-04-28T14:28:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Well, yeah. But that’s sexism for you. It’s always ultimately at your own net detriment. That’s why we had to pass civil rights legislation. Hiring minorities for cheaper (as there was a higher supply) would have made you much richer, but the free market wasn’t enough to beat racism. It sounds like you’re equating the treatment of women today to the treatment of minorities prior to the civil rights act, which is a pretty clear case of comparing apples and oranges IMO. Nowadays, people generally put profit before prejudice, as evidenced by the huge amount of illegal immigrants employed by American businesses every year. Mere sexism doesn’t answer Shodan’s question. If a company can hire a woman to do the same work as a man for 23% less (as per the oft quoted figure given for the alleged pay gap) then they have every incentive to do so. The bigger the company, the bigger the incentive. The fact of the matter is that the 23% pay gap is largely bunk, because nearly all of it can be accounted for by differing choices men and women tend to make. Of course, if you correct for these changes there is still a small gap which may well be attributable to sexism, and it needs to be dealt with, but it’s in the range of about 5 - 6%, not 23%. If you really want equal pay for equal work, the quickest way to do it would be to pass a law requiring men to take maternity leave alongside their wives/partners and encourage more men to opt for part-time work. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364/29 "2015-04-28T16:38:33Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I think the reference is to studies, which I haven’t read and cannot vouch for, that show that women who speak up for themselves are seen as uppity or something, whereas such behavior is looked upon favorably in men. That doesn’t seem to have much to do with my point that if one can hire an equally qualified woman for less than a man, it would be silly to hire a man. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-bad-equal-pay-for-women-good/718364.md?page=1)