# Unions fear SCOTUS could destroy them... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916 "2014-06-29T05:08:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/61 "2014-06-30T15:17:38Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > **What do you call being forced to join a union because the job you have been offered is in a union shop and thanks to the unions paying off politicians, the laws mandate that to work in that business in that location you have to join the union**. I certainly didn’t want to pay a fair amount of money in union dues, they never negotiated anything for me - I asked for a certain wage and certain other requirements and negotiated for myself when I was hired in. (bolding mine) AFAICT, this did not happen to you and the laws you claim exist do not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/62 "2014-06-30T15:29:39Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Not exactly. Reading the opinion further, it seems to be narrowly tailored to apply only to a certain class of “partial” public-sector worker. Such as the home health care workers at issue in the case. At least, that’s what the analysts are saying now. What say you, **Bricker?** It looks like you’re right – they didn’t overrule Abood; they just distinguished it from PAs. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/63 "2014-06-30T15:39:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It looks like you’re right – they didn’t overrule Abood; they just distinguished it from PAs. Basically, some states wrote laws that count a broad swath of home healthcare workers as public sector employees, because _mumble mumble_. The public employee unions got to count these people as members & deduct money from their paychecks. Needles to say, some of these workers were not happy with this, and the Supreme Court correctly declared “This is a huge steaming pile of bullshit! Cut it out!” ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/64 "2014-06-30T16:56:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Decision is out: if a public-sector worker doesn’t wish to belong to the union, the government has no right to withhold union dues from the worker’s paycheck. > > Not the outcome the unions wanted. > > Certainly the outcome I hoped for. > > Alito wrote the opinion, joined by the Chief, Kennedy, Scalia, and Thomas. Dissenting were Kagan, Breyer, Sotomayor, Ginsburg, and Breyer. Scared me for a minute there **Bricker**. I counted the “for” and “against” and got 5 to 5. I counted again, and still 5 to 5. Then I looked at the names and realized Breyer voted twice the cheat. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/65 "2014-06-30T16:58:38Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > Scared me for a minute there **Bricker**. I counted the “for” and “against” and got 5 to 5. I counted again, and still 5 to 5. Then I looked at the names and realized Breyer voted twice the cheat. Obama’s version of court-packing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/66 "2014-06-30T17:01:16Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > Scared me for a minute there **Bricker**. I counted the “for” and “against” and got 5 to 5. I counted again, and still 5 to 5. Then I looked at the names and realized Breyer voted twice the cheat. It took me ten very pre-coffee minutes to figure that out this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/67 "2014-06-30T17:32:12Z")
Who’s hiding **Ruken** ’s coffee? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/68 "2014-06-30T17:49:18Z")
Ugh. I had mixed feelings about the other decision (Hobby Lobby) but I’m thoroughly against this one. **Bricker** on what grounds do you feel further weakening labor unions in America is a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/69 "2014-06-30T18:06:42Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Ugh. > > I had mixed feelings about the other decision (Hobby Lobby) but I’m thoroughly against this one. > > **Bricker** on what grounds do you feel further weakening labor unions in America is a good thing? On the grounds that forcing someone to pay for membership in a union they don’t wish to belong to runs counter to our fundamental notions of fairness. Not only that, but the First Amendment guarantees us, inter alia, freedom of association; when the government forces a person to pay union fees when the person does not wish to be a part of the union, this violates the First Amendment right of association. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/70 "2014-06-30T21:55:12Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > Who’s hiding **Ruken** ’s coffee? 😛 I couldn’t make another myself because it would have taken away a Good Union Job. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/71 "2014-07-01T00:00:17Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > What do you call being forced to join a union because the job you have been offered is in a union shop and thanks to the unions paying off politicians, the laws mandate that to work in that business in that location you have to join the union. A much more highly desirable situation than any possible alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/72 "2014-07-01T03:19:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A much more highly desirable situation than any possible alternative. Say that to the best 15% of workers in unionized industries. They get held back by the lesser co-workers because the incentives of union labor are perverse. Actual acumen in one’s profession is not duly rewarded. That being said, _voluntary_ unionization is vital to a functioning democracy, as the leadership is in fact accountable to its members. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/73 "2014-07-01T03:40:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the grounds that forcing someone to pay for membership in a union they don’t wish to belong to runs counter to our fundamental notions of fairness. > > Not only that, but the First Amendment guarantees us, inter alia, freedom of association; when the government forces a person to pay union fees when the person does not wish to be a part of the union, this violates the First Amendment right of association. Whose notion of fairness? It doesn’t run contrary to mine. I don’t see why paying union fees is inherently different than paying taxes. Can I get out of paying my taxes because I don’t approve of our foreign policy? For the record, **Bricker** you’re a Catholic right? Catholic social teaching strongly favours labour unions as a bulwark both against capitalists and against the state, last I checked. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/74 "2014-07-01T03:43:15Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Say that to the best 15% of workers in unionized industries. They get held back by the lesser co-workers because the incentives of union labor are perverse. Actual acumen in one’s profession is not duly rewarded. > > That being said, _voluntary_ unionization is vital to a functioning democracy, as the leadership is in fact accountable to its members. what’s conducive to the common good, isn’t always conducive to the self-interest of every individual person. And even in heavily unionized industries, unionized workers can and do get fired all the time. It’s not as easy as it would be if unions didn’t exist (and it shouldn’t be), but it’s false to say that doing your job well isn’t rewarded. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/75 "2014-07-01T07:24:12Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t see why paying union fees is inherently different than paying taxes. Because a union isn’t a fucking government. A union is merely an extension of your right to freely associate, and as such should not be granted extraordinary rights unavailable to any individual member. _You_ do not have the legal right to shake down your co-workers for money, so neither should you and your mates working together. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/76 "2014-07-01T14:05:48Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > That being said, _voluntary_ unionization is vital to a functioning democracy, as the leadership is in fact accountable to its members. **All** unions have internal elections. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/77 "2014-07-01T15:06:34Z")
I have not kept up with this thread but this article is recent and seems to bear on this topic so: [Should You Care About the Fate of Unions?](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2014/06/supreme_court_harris_decision_if_you_care_about_income_inequality_you_should.html) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/78 "2014-07-01T15:20:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **All** unions have internal elections. And the people elected have no power to change anything. Especially not dues. But boy howdy, I sure do love that pen you gave me with the union logo on it. It worked for two whole days before the click part broke. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/79 "2014-07-01T15:27:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **All** unions have internal elections. That may be true, but it’s not on point. **Stringbean** was referencing _voluntary unionization._ The PAs in this case did not voluntarily unionize - they were made a part of the union for the purposes of agency fees by executive order. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916/80 "2014-07-03T15:52:05Z")
Why the RW hostility to labor unions anyway? After all, collective bargaining is just another form of negotiation-in-the-marketplace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-fear-scotus-could-destroy-them/691916.md?page=5)