# Unions in America: When did the narrative change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126 "2012-08-30T10:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/241 "2012-09-04T16:00:31Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And people have all kinds of horror stories about crappy, or irrational, or insane bosses, or stupid, rigid company rules too. You can change companies, these days single unions tend to control entire industries in various areas, if you have an issue with the union you have to change professions which is much more difficult than changing jobs. I am very pro-workers organizational rights but to pretend the current unions aren’t a mess is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/242 "2012-09-04T16:15:19Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Threats of violence are almost universal. Prove it. Show us a review of every statement made in and about every union dispute or strike showing violent threats in most of them. I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/243 "2012-09-04T16:16:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You can change companies, these days single unions tend to control entire industries in various areas No they don’t. Unions represent only something like 7 percent of private-sector workers these days. Very few trades are 100% union. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/244 "2012-09-04T16:19:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No they don’t. Unions represent only something like 7 percent of private-sector workers these days. Very few trades are 100% union. Tell that to teachers or the movie industry, I know this from experience not theory. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/245 "2012-09-04T16:25:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And people have all kinds of horror stories about crappy, or irrational, or insane bosses, or stupid, rigid company rules too. I’m sure that’s true. But I generally don’t. Obviously, anecdotes are not data, but the data shows that people are no longer in support of unions as much. I know why I don’t support unions. Perhaps my experience is more common than you think, and actually does explain the changing sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/246 "2012-09-04T16:27:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Prove it. > > Show us a review of every statement made in and about every union dispute or strike showing violent threats in most of them. > > I’ll wait. Really, Do I need to post every video of every person ever crossing a picket line? Here is a recent local one for me that shows how peaceful things are. [http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html](http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/247 "2012-09-04T16:32:25Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Really, Do I need to post every video of every person ever crossing a picket line? Yes. You made the claim. Either prove it or withdraw it. > [@](#): > > Here is a recent local one for me that shows how peaceful things are. > > [http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html](http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html) That is ONE incident. You proved that there was ONE incident. You said violent threats are “almost universal.” Prove it, or withdraw it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/248 "2012-09-04T16:33:29Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I’m sure that’s true. But I generally don’t. Yet they are out there. > [@](#): > > Obviously, anecdotes are not data, but the data shows that people are no longer in support of unions as much. I know why I don’t support unions. Perhaps my experience is more common than you think, and actually does explain the changing sentiment. Who knows? Maybe people who don’t have much experience with unions are listening to stories like yours, but not to stories about evil bosses or stupid management. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/249 "2012-09-04T16:36:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes. > > You made the claim. Either prove it or withdraw it. > > That is ONE incident. You proved that there was ONE incident. > > You said violent threats are “almost universal.” Prove it, or withdraw it. What do you think the intimidation and yelling are when you cross the picket line? I do not feel compelled to respond to your irrational hand waving. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/250 "2012-09-04T16:38:36Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What do you think the intimidation and yelling are when you cross the picket line? Prove that intimidation and yelling are “almost universal” at picket lines. That’s a perfectly rational request. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/251 "2012-09-04T16:40:21Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Prove that intimidation and yelling are “almost universal” at picket lines. > > That’s a perfectly rational request. How about you show me a friendly picket line that doesn’t make threats to “scabs” [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naRqX7ijmkc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naRqX7ijmkc) I can post videos like this all day. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/252 "2012-09-04T16:43:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > How about you show me a friendly picket line that doesn’t make threats to “scabs” Sorry, that’s a logical fallacy. > **[Argument from ignorance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)** > > Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), or appeal to ignorance,\[a\] is an informal fallacy where something is claimed to be true or false because of a lack of evidence to the contrary. > The fallacy is committed when one asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. If a proposition has not yet been proven true, one is not entitled to conclude, solely on that basis, that it is false,... ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/253 "2012-09-04T16:46:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sorry, that’s a logical fallacy. > > [Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) No, I have given evidence, you need to revisit that thread. If I were saying it was unknowable you would have a point. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/254 "2012-09-04T16:47:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, I have given evidence Nope. You said it was “almost universal.” Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/255 "2012-09-04T16:47:57Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > How about you show me a friendly picket line that doesn’t make threats to “scabs” > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naRqX7ijmkc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naRqX7ijmkc) > > I can post videos like this all day. That’s the nasty truth. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/256 "2012-09-04T17:03:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Prove that intimidation and yelling are “almost universal” at picket lines. > > That’s a perfectly rational request. How many picket lines have you crossed? Were you yelled at or intimidated? I’ve only had the one experience, so I’m willing to consider that it wasn’t a typical one. You seem to have an unreasonably high standard of proof for anyone who disagrees with you, though you’ve provided very little evidence (even anecdotal) to support your claims. Proving near-universality is pretty tough. But disproving it should be pretty easy. I searched the internet for videos of people crossing picket lines peaceably, with no yells or intimidation. I couldn’t find one (after a brief search). Now, maybe that’s because the only videos are uploaded by union haters (or just people who just want sensational videos), or maybe it’s because I suck at searching the internet. But if it’s not as common as I think, surely there’s at least one out there. I’d be happy to watch it if you can find it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/257 "2012-09-04T17:11:20Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > How many picket lines have you crossed? Were you yelled at or intimidated? I’ve only had the one experience, so I’m willing to consider that it wasn’t a typical one. None. Which means I can’t say whether threats of violence are “almost universal.” Or not. > [@](#): > > You seem to have an unreasonably high standard of proof for anyone who disagrees with you, though you’ve provided very little evidence (even anecdotal) to support your claims. Not at all. My standards are normal. I’ve added no claims to support, just questioned others. > [@](#): > > Proving near-universality is pretty tough. Exactly! You get it. > [@](#): > > But disproving it should be pretty easy. Utter bullshit. How does one easily disprove that something is “almost universal?” If I say almost every book in the world has 100 pages or more, can you prove, or disprove, that easily? No. You’d have to go check a whole lot of books. > [@](#): > > I searched the internet for videos of people crossing picket lines peaceably, with no yells or intimidation. I couldn’t find one (after a brief search).Now, maybe that’s because the only videos are uploaded by union haters (or just people who just want sensational videos), or maybe it’s because I suck at searching the internet. Or maybe because nobody posts videos of peaceful picket lines because they aren’t newsworthy - in other words, they happen all the time. > [@](#): > > But if it’s not as common as I think, surely there’s at least one out there. I’d be happy to watch it if you can find it. Did you take statistics? If I post one video, that proves there was one peaceful picket line. The internet universe of videos is not good evidence of much. Same goes for videos you might post. Seriously, people. A few videos doesn’t prove anything is “almost universal” or disprove it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/258 "2012-09-04T17:13:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sorry, that’s a logical fallacy. > > [Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) It’s not argument from ignorance – it’s you asking him to prove the negative. There are plenty of documented, video examples of hostile picket lines. This shifts the burden to you – does it makes sense to imagine there’s not one video that shows a picket line treating people who cross it peacefully? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/259 "2012-09-04T17:15:40Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Or maybe because nobody posts videos of peaceful picket lines because they aren’t newsworthy - in other words, they happen all the time. If there were some requirement that YouTube videos were newsworthy, you’d have a point. But there are YouTube videos of cats, videos of toddlers, videos of almost every facet of life. Where is the peaceful union picket line? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Seriously, people. A few videos doesn’t prove anything is “almost universal” or disprove it. But the inability to find even one proves something. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/260 "2012-09-04T17:17:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If there were some requirement that YouTube videos were newsworthy, you’d have a point. But there are YouTube videos of cats, videos of toddlers, videos of almost every facet of life. Where is the peaceful union picket line? Um, exactly - Youtube posts are not newsworthy. They are not anything. They are not evidence. You cannot post a few videos and say “There - it’s almost universal!” I’m really kind of surprised I have to explain this. I’m not going to waste my time on this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=14)