# Unions in America: When did the narrative change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126 "2012-08-30T10:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/261 "2012-09-04T17:19:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the inability to find even one proves something. No, it doesn’t prove a damn thing. Can you find a single video of yourself having sex? Does that mean you’ve never had sex? Even if you did have a good data set, I already posted why this is a logical fallacy. Read the link. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/262 "2012-09-04T17:20:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not argument from ignorance – it’s you asking him to prove the negative. I have asked no such thing. I asked to prove a positive. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of documented, video examples of hostile picket lines. This shifts the burden to you – does it makes sense to imagine there’s not one video that shows a picket line treating people who cross it peacefully? Key word: “imagine.” Stop it already. You obviously don’t understand even the most basic principles of logic or statistics or all that. I’m not going to waste my time explaining them to you. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/263 "2012-09-04T17:25:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Where is the peaceful union picket line? I have witnessed more than one peaceful picket line. I never thought to take a video. The picketing nurses were non-violent however there were definite threats of intimidation and retaliation. The nurses who chose to come to work had to do so under duress and hide their arrival from the union cameras. Intimidation can be non violent. The union would issue consequences for scabs in due time. Mostly financial consequences. UGH. PS: The word “scabs” is an ugly word for a person who is following his/her personal conscience. Being called a “scab” is hostile. And stupid. It is not an intelligent thing for the unions to allow because it gives the public MORE REASON to think poorly of unions in general. Which is what this thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/264 "2012-09-04T17:58:32Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Not at all. My standards are normal. I’ve added no claims to support, just questioned others. It’s always possible to define the standards of evidence so strictly that they’re impossible to meet, and then claim that everything you disagree with is unsubstantiated, while retaining some kind of moral high ground by making no claims. Intellectually honest debating involves making counterclaims and supporting them to the same degree that you expect those who disagree with you to meet. > [@](#): > > How does one easily disprove that something is “almost universal?” Ok, I agree. Clearly “almost universal” is a difficult claim to prove on either side, since it’s poorly defined. How about disproving that it’s absolutely universal? I’d consider it interesting if you could produce evidence of even one such picket line. It wouldn’t prove anything about how common such things are. But it would prove that they exist. So far in my lifetime I’ve seen zero evidence that they do. Granted, violence and strife are magnets for news, so it’s not surprising that I hear about the cases gone bad. But as **Bricker** pointed out, the “editorial” standards of Youtube are absurdly low. Surely there’s a union supporter out there who wants to counter all the claims of union intimidation with some evidence of polite picket lines who don’t harass people who cross them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/265 "2012-09-04T18:18:28Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > It’s always possible to define the standards of evidence so strictly that they’re impossible to meet, and then claim that everything you disagree with is unsubstantiated, while retaining some kind of moral high ground by making no claims. Intellectually honest debating involves making counterclaims and supporting them to the same degree that you expect those who disagree with you to meet. My standards are perfectly reasonable in this case. You can’t just go saying something is “almost universal” and then not support it. Otherwise anyone could do that. > [@](#): > > Ok, I agree. Clearly “almost universal” is a difficult claim to prove on either side, since it’s poorly defined. How about disproving that it’s absolutely universal? What would that accomplish? > [@](#): > > I’d consider it interesting if you could produce evidence of even one such picket line. It wouldn’t prove anything about how common such things are. But it would prove that they exist. So far in my lifetime I’ve seen zero evidence that they do. Granted, violence and strife are magnets for news, so it’s not surprising that I hear about the cases gone bad. But as **Bricker** pointed out, the “editorial” standards of Youtube are absurdly low. Surely there’s a union supporter out there who wants to counter all the claims of union intimidation with some evidence of polite picket lines who don’t harass people who cross them. Sorry, but none of this is good evidence. I’m not going to play into it. YouTube is simply a worthless source for this. Somebody claimed that something was “almost universal.” If he can’t back that up, how does HE know it in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/266 "2012-09-04T18:24:45Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What do you think the intimidation and yelling are when you cross the picket line? > > I do not feel compelled to respond to your irrational hand waving. It is not irrational to ask for evidence from someone who makes a positive claim. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/267 "2012-09-04T18:37:22Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > How about you show me a friendly picket line that doesn’t make threats to “scabs” That’s a fair request, too. Even fairer would be for us to find some way of quantifying and tracking the rate of “threateningness” at picket lines, and to see what variables we can correlate it to (what industry, what issue, what individuals make the threats, etc…) I don’t suppose this has been done? > [@](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naRqX7ijmkc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naRqX7ijmkc) > > I can post videos like this all day. It’s really hard for me to understand anything said in that video, but as far as I can tell it was just people yelling “scab!” Where’s the threat you’re talking about in the video? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/268 "2012-09-04T18:39:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sorry, that’s a logical fallacy. > > [Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) He’s probably not engaging in argument from ignorance. He’s probably not saying “Since I’ve seen no evidence of non-threatening pickets, they don’t exist.” Rather, he’s probably saying “I’ve seen no evidence of non-threatening pickets _and I would have if they existed,_ so they don’t exist.” The question is, is he right when he thinks that he would have heard about them if they existed? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/269 "2012-09-04T18:42:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not argument from ignorance – it’s you asking him to prove the negative. There are plenty of documented, video examples of hostile picket lines. This shifts the burden to you… Bricker, this is a _terrible_ analysis. It’s 101 stuff! Come on! Lance is asking for proof of a _positive claim_ that violence is almost universal. A series of videos doesn’t even _address_ that claim, much less prove it. Come on man, I know you know this. I hereby remind you. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/270 "2012-09-04T18:45:07Z")
Guys, what exactly would a video of a peaceful picket look like? It would be dozens of hours long, and would cover every square foot of the picket line. I’m not sure what you think you’re looking for here, but whatever it is it is almost impossible for it to exist on purely pragmatic grounds. So, with that in mind, what _are_ you looking for? Also, what counts as “threatening?” Is it threatening simply to yell “scab?” I wouldn’t have thought so, but do we differ on that? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/271 "2012-09-04T18:53:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > He’s probably not engaging in argument from ignorance. He’s probably not saying “Since I’ve seen no evidence of non-threatening pickets, they don’t exist.” Rather, he’s probably saying “I’ve seen no evidence of non-threatening pickets _and I would have if they existed,_ so they don’t exist.” The question is, is he right when he thinks that he would have heard about them if they existed? Exactly - I doubt he has personally visited most of the picket lines in America. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/272 "2012-09-04T18:58:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Japan also has a very strong culture where workers are expected to work their asses off for their employer. Japanese auto makers also have bonus systems for employees that work harder, and even with all that Japanese workers make significantly less than UAW workers - especially when you add in vacation time, retirement packages and other benefits. > > You’ll notice that the German cars are generally more expensive than their domestic counterparts. Also, German manufacturers make a lot of their cheaper cars in the U.S., and all located their plants in right-to-work states. If you read the article linked to the article above, you’ll see that they do that because they found the UAW’s rules to be non-productive. It’s not just about salary - it’s about work rules, benefits, and especially seniority rules that prevent the worst workers from being fired and which prevent the plant from operating at peak efficiency. There are some differences between Japanese EMPLOYERS and US automakers as well. Japanese companies traditionally put the welfare of their employees over making profits and regarded creating secure jobs for their employees as being more important that paying dividends to their shareholders. Companies are often resistant to making changes that sacrifice the well-being of employees in the name of increased efficiency. Germany is not a fire at will employment jurisdiction, you can only fire for cause or if there is an urgent buiness requirement for layoffs, it is generally done on a seniority basis. Sooo, Japan has cheaper union labor and Germany is more expensive union labor. So can we conclude it has little to do with the wage level? Can we conclude it has little to do with unionization per se? Considering how much harder it is to fire an employee in Japan and germany, can we even conclude it has little to do with how hard it is to fire employees in japan and Germany (both for legal and societal reasons)? Perhaps the problems weren’t on the employee side. > [@](#): > > The big unions take an adversarial stance with management, and they agitate their workers with tales of management malfeasance in order to maintain their power. Yes, of course. These stories of management malfeasance are totally unfounded. > [@](#): > > This is especially true with the public unions, because they understand how politicians think. In my experience, public employees (at least at the federal level) are fairly public minded, they aren’t looking for a teat to suckle at. Most them (at least in the DC area) tend to be well educated professionals who could make at least as much in the private sector but choose to work in the public sector at least in part out of a sense of public mindedness. > [@](#): > > And that’s a good thing. I agree but when people ascribe that to unions, then I call bullshit. I don’t even think its automation. Do you know how automated a garment factory is? Its not very. Thats why the labor costs are so important. Thats why we could never keep the industry. US seamstresses are not really much better at using a merrow sewing machine than a Chinese seamstress. The learning curve flattens out pretty fucking quickly. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, garment manufacture is something the 3rd world can do, and allowing them to do so gives them a chance to start building an infrastructure and a middle class. It’s all good. Its generally the first rung on the ladder towards industrialization. Remember when all the clothes were made in Korea. Try finding any clothing made in Korea these days. They make flat screen TVs now. > [@](#): > > Most jobs like this weren’t killed due to outsourcing anyway. Automation and assembly line work eliminated them. The number of people employed on farms is a tiny fraction of what it used to be. As someone who did manual labor on a farm for years, I’m waving a tiny flag in support of the machines. It doesn’t help that all the new machines are being used in factories in China instead of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/273 "2012-09-04T19:01:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’d rather not have my children taught by minimum wage teachers Particularly in the primary grades, in the early years of public schools, women teachers were minimum wage workers, as far as such a thing was possible. The pay scale was geared towards young single women who were expected to remain with their parents, or possibly live in boarding houses, until they were married–at which point they could be fired. > [@](#): > > If you want an example of how management fucks its employees in the ass, look at those poor Ohio coal miners who were told to stand behind Romney and act as campaign props. And while they were at it, lose a day’s pay. All so the owner, who is a big Romney donor, can try to elect the guy who wants to kill Medicare. While this doesn’t entirely surprise me, do you have a cite? If substantiated this needs to be more widely known. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/274 "2012-09-04T19:03:57Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Bricker, this is a _terrible_ analysis. It’s 101 stuff! Come on! > > Lance is asking for proof of a _positive claim_ that violence is almost universal. A series of videos doesn’t even _address_ that claim, much less prove it. > > Come on man, I know you know this. I hereby remind you. My reasoning is: given the ubquity of scenes on YouTube etc, it seems likely to me that someone would have posted snippets of their picketing experience somewhere. Are all such examples violent? Or are there some that show peaceful experiences? The lack of any that show peaceful experiences, given the fact that there are YouTube videos for almost any other public experience, suggests their rarity or non-existence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/275 "2012-09-04T19:04:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Big deal. When you have a major power imbalance, you find a way to turn it to your advantage. So if you can’t negotiate for wages directly, you negotiate for better retirement benefits work rules that allow you to claim more overtime, more vacation time, personal time, job security, whatever. In the end, it all comes down to increasing the cost of the worker to the public. Federal employee pensions are 1% per year of service so if you work 30 years, your pension is 30% of the average of your highest 3 or 5 years base salary. You seem to think that the Federeal employees get whatever they want. Are we going to go back to the notion that federal employees are overpaid? > [@](#): > > Here in Alberta, Nurses haven’t been able to get much in the way of raises for the past 5 years (although neither has anyone else in the recession). So instead, they negotiated for more sick days, more personal days, and rules that paid them more for shift work and overtime. Then many nurses translated that into pay by taking sick time or personal time during their normal shifts, then signing up for replacement shifts at time and a half or double time. They work the same hours as before, but for much more pay. You can always find a way if you have the power. And yet federal employees cant do that. Or are you under the impression we are talking about how the perception of unions have changed above the 45th parallel. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/276 "2012-09-04T19:08:12Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Guys, what exactly would a video of a peaceful picket look like? It would be dozens of hours long, and would cover every square foot of the picket line. I’m not sure what you think you’re looking for here, but whatever it is it is almost impossible for it to exist on purely pragmatic grounds. > > So, with that in mind, what _are_ you looking for? > > Also, what counts as “threatening?” Is it threatening simply to yell “scab?” I wouldn’t have thought so, but do we differ on that? It could be thirty seconds long and satisfy me. It just needs to show picketers, someone crossing the picket lines, and the lack of any abuse, threats, or intimidation. It’s not threatening to yell “scab,” but it’s abusive. I wouldn’t mind even seeing a picketeer explaining his position, or expressing sorrow at the choice to cross the line. That’s OK by me. Are you saying there’s nothing like that out there? Isn’t the difficulty in finding such a snippet indicative of SOMETHING? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/277 "2012-09-04T19:18:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It could be thirty seconds long and satisfy me. It just needs to show picketers, someone crossing the picket lines, and the lack of any abuse, threats, or intimidation. > > It’s not threatening to yell “scab,” but it’s abusive. I wouldn’t mind even seeing a picketeer explaining his position, or expressing sorrow at the choice to cross the line. That’s OK by me. > > Are you saying there’s nothing like that out there? Isn’t the difficulty in finding such a snippet indicative of SOMETHING? It would be a nice video to find. I have to register, though, that this does not change the fact that the videos we’ve seen so far in this thread constitute no evidence at all for the claim that violence or threats (or whatever it is we’re talking about) is almost universal on picket lines. For that we’d need something much nearer to randomized sampling etc. I don’t think I can find it within me to object to people yelling “scab.” Well, I mean, it’s not pleasant and I wish they wouldn’t. But I’ll put it this way–if that’s the worst they do, I don’t think any real harm has been done. People let off steam. I don’t draw any conclusions from someone letting off steam, especially in a ritualized context like a picket line. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/278 "2012-09-04T19:38:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree with you. I think society’s view – the one that inspired this thread, the one where the positive narrative about unions is spiraling downward and replaced by a negative one – is the direct result of seeing these kinds attempts to force a certain vision of “fairness” into place. Fairness translates often to seniority rather than merit. > > The only sustainable fairness, in my view, is the one that comes with true freedom: where both the employee and employer are free to bargain or walk away. A good employee will have the upper hand; a mediocre employee will not. That’s not “fair” – it means the best, most talented employees do well. Ironically enough, government employment follows the same line. (the seniority line) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/279 "2012-09-04T19:42:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My reasoning is: given the ubquity of scenes on YouTube etc, it seems likely to me that someone would have posted snippets of their picketing experience somewhere. Are all such examples violent? Or are there some that show peaceful experiences? > > The lack of any that show peaceful experiences, given the fact that there are YouTube videos for almost any other public experience, suggests their rarity or non-existence. Wow. I think I’ve stumbled on a reason that unions are villified - those who want to believe bad things about them have laughably low standards of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/280 "2012-09-04T19:50:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It could be thirty seconds long and satisfy me. It just needs to show picketers, someone crossing the picket lines, and the lack of any abuse, threats, or intimidation. Satisfy you in what way? To withdraw your entire claim? > [@](#): > > Are you saying there’s nothing like that out there? Isn’t the difficulty in finding such a snippet indicative of SOMETHING? It’s not hard to find. Let’s be clear - posting this does NOT prove, or disprove, a damn thing - except that you’re wrong about the ease of finding this video. [http://blog.thenewstribune.com/photo/2011/09/16/video-from-the-picket-line-strike-day-4/](http://blog.thenewstribune.com/photo/2011/09/16/video-from-the-picket-line-strike-day-4/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=15)