# Unions in America: When did the narrative change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126 "2012-08-30T10:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/321 "2012-09-05T03:02:18Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Enough already. > > You’re a guy sitting behind a computer who doesn’t know what you’re talking about who is trying to justify his own prejudices. Personal attack, irrelivent > [@](#): > > False. > > This decision does not make violence, or threats, legal. Can you say why, or are you resorting to yelling NO again? > [@](#): > > Gee, right wing anti-union sites. There’s your problem right there. So you can’t provide any cites to refute them, you just hand wave them away. Why does your personal insult from this post not also apply to you. BTW, it is anicdotial but no, as a union member I was coached on what to say. > [@](#): > > I’ve explained why you are wrong already. You are failing miserably at logic. Others have noted this. > > Enough. Another personal attack, once again showing you have no real argument on your side. > [@](#): > > You cannot assert something and then demand that someone disprove it. That is a logical fallacy. > > Enough. I am asking for any evidence that we should give your claim any merit and so far you have failed to present a single iota of evidence. I would say at this point you have nothing to present because it is false. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/322 "2012-09-05T15:53:12Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Another personal attack, once again showing you have no real argument on your side. The fact that you call this a personal attack pretty much proves my point. > [@](#): > > I am asking for any evidence that we should give your claim any merit and so far you have failed to present a single iota of evidence. Enough. > [@](#): > > I would say at this point you have nothing to present because it is false. Enough. Go take Logic 101 and stop polluting this thread. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/323 "2012-09-05T15:54:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We’re not discussing what teachers or any other union folks do while NOT on union business. But I am. And my point is that claiming that one anecdote proves anything is false. It is just as false as claiming that most teachers are dicks because one teacher was a dick once. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/324 "2012-09-05T15:55:54Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > **lance** - you are now becoming the worst sort of Union promoter. Your complete unwillingness to see that the actions of some union members has hurt their cause only adds to the negative view that people have of unions. By refusing to see that there are picket lines that go beyond protest, that there are members that commit illegal acts, and that there are individual actors who would yell a school aged girl - you hurt the union cause. Please read the thread before you comment. You clearly don’t understand what this dispute is about. > [@](#): > > That shit should not be tolerated, excused, or ignored. By doing so, you only add ammo to the anti-union side by showing that you don’t care. I have not excused anything. Please read the thread. If you misrepresent my views again, I’ll ask for an apology too. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/325 "2012-09-05T15:57:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Every strike I’ve seen has involved intimidation against scabs. Every single one. Now I haven’t seen 90% of them on the planet but I know what I’ve seen locally. How many have you seen? (And what trades?) > [@](#): > > Maybe you don’t consider intimidation a violent act. Sigh. No, I simply don’t consider your observation to be statistically valid evidence that can characterize the entire population. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/326 "2012-09-05T15:58:59Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Bricker, this is a _terrible_ analysis. It’s 101 stuff! Come on! > > Lance is asking for proof of a _positive claim_ that violence is almost universal. A series of videos doesn’t even _address_ that claim, much less prove it. > > Come on man, I know you know this. I hereby remind you. Bears repeating. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/327 "2012-09-05T16:05:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The fact that you call this a personal attack pretty much proves my point. > > Enough. > > Enough. > > Go take Logic 101 and stop polluting this thread. I’d say the pollution of this thread started about the time you started posting in it. What is your post count at (in this thread alone)? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/328 "2012-09-05T16:06:38Z")
Wow that must be a record for the number of consecutive posts with absolutely no debate content. Looks like it is time to head to the pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/329 "2012-09-05T16:06:55Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I’d say the pollution of this thread started about the time you started posting in it. > What is your post count at (in this thread alone)? Irrelevant. Please post on the topic if you have something to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/330 "2012-09-05T16:23:45Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Please read the thread before you comment. You clearly don’t understand what this dispute is about. Do you? Multiple posters who are (or were) union members have come in and talked about the shit policies, corrupt union leaders, and intimidation tactics they’ve personally witnessed. You poo poo all of that. But you can’t do that. We’re allowed to have an opinion as well. Isn’t that what being in a union is all about after all? It’s people like you that make me hate the union I’m forced to support. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/331 "2012-09-05T16:45:35Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Do you? Multiple posters who are (or were) union members have come in and talked about the shit policies, corrupt union leaders, and intimidation tactics they’ve personally witnessed. > > You poo poo all of that. No, I don’t. That’s entirely false. My comments have been very specific. Do not read anything into them. > [@](#): > > But you can’t do that. We’re allowed to have an opinion as well. Isn’t that what being in a union is all about after all? Of course you can have your opinion. You simply can’t make claims that aren’t supported by the facts. That’s all. Saying something you can’t possibly know, or have no evidence for, is something I won’t accept. You shouldn’t either. > [@](#): > > It’s people like you that make me hate the union I’m forced to support. No it’s not. You are simply confused by what I’m saying, and don’t seem to care enough to read the thread. You hate unions for other reasons. We can discuss those if you like, even though they’ve probably already been discussed here. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/332 "2012-09-05T16:51:55Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Please read the thread before you comment. You clearly don’t understand what this dispute is about. > > I have not excused anything. Please read the thread. If you misrepresent my views again, I’ll ask for an apology too. I have read the thread (you even thanked me for my contribution). This dispute is over the loss of union support over time. You implied in your post that you saw no issue with the school bus incident. If you would like to restate your position about that particular incident, I would love to hear it. You can ask for anything that you like. Since I have no contract with you, I am under zero obligation to provide. The apology currently owed is you towards the pro-union side. Your contributions to this thread are causing more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/333 "2012-09-05T18:39:35Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I have read the thread (you even thanked me for my contribution). This dispute is over the loss of union support over time. Not the specific one you referred to. > [@](#): > > You implied in your post that you saw no issue with the school bus incident. You didn’t say anything about that incident or ask me about it. You could have. > [@](#): > > If you would like to restate your position about that particular incident, I would love to hear it. To state it for the first time - of course I have a problem with that behavior. It was unacceptable. _My problem is with the conclusions people are trying to draw from it._ This should be obvious if you actually read the thread. > [@](#): > > You can ask for anything that you like. Since I have no contract with you, I am under zero obligation to provide. That goes without saying. > [@](#): > > The apology currently owed is you towards the pro-union side. Your contributions to this thread are causing more harm than good. I’m quite sure the opposite is true. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/334 "2012-09-05T18:56:21Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Of course you can have your opinion. You simply can’t make claims that aren’t supported by the facts. That’s all. Just so we’re clear, you’re calling me a liar. I don’t think the mods take too kindly to that in GD. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/335 "2012-09-05T18:58:09Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Just so we’re clear, you’re calling me a liar. I don’t think the mods take too kindly to that in GD. Unbelievable. I’m not even remotely calling you a liar. I’m criticizing your logic. This is proof that your reading comprehension in this thread is failing fast. Let’s not continue this. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/336 "2012-09-05T20:11:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m not even remotely calling you a liar. I’m criticizing your logic. I said that I _ **personally witnessed** _ union officials acting corrupt. You say that I can’t make claims that aren’t supported by the facts. Which makes no sense when said about a personal anecdote. I know the facts because I witnessed them. You can either accept that (and admit that unions are full of corrupt jackasses some of the time) or you can call me a liar. So far, you have chosen the liar route. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/337 "2012-09-05T20:23:18Z")
\*\*Justin Bailey - \*\*“unions are full of corrupt jackasses some of the time” If we change this to: “Corporations are full of corrupt jackasses some of the time” Does it follow that all corporations are evil and should be destroyed? Because that’s the argument being made against unions. Saying that all of something should be eliminated because some of them have corruption involved is a pretty extreme and irrational viewpoint in any context. And I don’t think that anyone can argue that no corporations are full of corrupt assholes, right? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/338 "2012-09-05T20:28:40Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > \*\*Justin Bailey - \*\*“unions are full of corrupt jackasses some of the time” > > If we change this to: > > “Corporations are full of corrupt jackasses some of the time” > > Does it follow that all corporations are evil and should be destroyed? You’re right, in that way, it doesn’t follow. But I was only using “some of the time” because I think that’s the only way Brother Lance will accept it (side note, why must all union reps begin their emails with “Dear Brothers and Sisters”?). Personally, I think most unions are corrupt and mine is just another example of a common problem. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/339 "2012-09-05T20:41:30Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > You’re right, in that way, it doesn’t follow. But I was only using “some of the time” because I think that’s the only way Brother Lance will accept it (side note, why must all union reps begin their emails with “Dear Brothers and Sisters”?). Probably to indicate that everyone in the union is on the same level with each other, and that we’re all in it together. That’s just what I’d assume anyway. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Personally, I think most unions are corrupt and mine is just another example of a common problem. That’s fair, but I think the opposing viewpoint is that we shouldn’t just demonize and break all unions and get rid of all labor organization because some people have had some bad experiences with their particular unions. Some people have had bad experiences with management as well, but noone is advocating getting rid of management across the board are they? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/340 "2012-09-05T20:47:51Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > That’s fair, but I think the opposing viewpoint is that we shouldn’t just demonize and break all unions and get rid of all labor organization because some people have had some bad experiences with their particular unions. Some people have had bad experiences with management as well, but noone is advocating getting rid of management across the board are they? Certainly I’m not aware of anyone seriously advocating outlawing unions. Everyone should have the absolute right to band together and bargain collectively if they wish. I simply propose removing legal restrictions on employers – like the inability to fire striking workers – that give unions an unfair edge. The essential element here is freedom – for the union, the employee, the employer. Each is – or should be – free to bargain or to break ties and walk away, and to bargain without the use of threats, intimidation, or violence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=18)