# Unions in America: When did the narrative change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126 "2012-08-30T10:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/21 "2012-08-30T16:15:01Z")
American workers desperately need unions or something like them. Maybe a trade association like thing would be better and more modern. That said, my impression of unions has always been that they are corrupt. With unions, Johnny Stompanati and Jimmy the Weasel are stealing your pension funds. Without them, the company you work for is stealing your pension funds. Shitty situation to be in. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/22 "2012-08-30T16:22:52Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > An aside, I have worked with some union folks in my present job and it sucks. Not because the employees are bad but because of the rules foisted upon the workers by the union. Want to move a piece of equipment 5 feet that weighs 20 pounds and will take 2 minutes? Can’t do that, there is a guy who is supposed to do that and doing it yourself would break the rules. So, call the guy and wait an hour or so until he shows up. In the mean time, sit back and relax because you can’t do anything else until the guy who _has_ to move the equipment shows up. Seriously. I have seen anecdotes like this, usually in the context of “here’s something that happened to a friend of a friend of mine…” Can someone offer independent, ideally somehow documented, confirmation that events of the nature described above actually do take place? One story a friend of mine gave (about a friend of his) was that a worker and his manager were docked a day’s pay because the manager picked up a screw off the ground for the worker. There was some other guy that was supposed to do all the lifting that day or something. This never actually happened, right? ---
**Author:** ![Brad\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@Brad\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brad_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/23 "2012-08-30T16:40:24Z")
A Union doesn’t just say “you can’t do that” to employers. They enforce a contract that the employer signed. These contracts also spell out exactly how to get rid of a poor worker. It’s not a union’s fault that the management can’t follow the contract that the employer signed and document someone’s poor performance. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/24 "2012-08-30T16:40:33Z")
You need unions because without them the workers have to accept whatever management feels like giving them. I’d rather not have my children taught by minimum wage teachers, or have cut-rate firemen trying to save my home. Think the union is the biggest threat to your pension fund? Ask the guys who Romney screwed over with Bain. If you want an example of how management fucks its employees in the ass, look at those poor Ohio coal miners who were told to stand behind Romney and act as campaign props. And while they were at it, lose a day’s pay. All so the owner, who is a big Romney donor, can try to elect the guy who wants to kill Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/25 "2012-08-30T16:41:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Public sector employees are just as entitled to negotiate wages as anyone else. If they want to form a union to do so, it isn’t any of your business. Lo and behold, another beautiful example of liberals’ breath-taking arrogance. Public-sector employees are paid by taxpayer money–which means that it is in fact the public’s business how much they are paid. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/26 "2012-08-30T17:01:22Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Lo and behold, another beautiful example of liberals’ breath-taking arrogance. > > Public-sector employees are paid by taxpayer money–which means that it is in fact the public’s business how much they are paid. Lo and behold, another beautiful example of conservatives’ breathtaking inability to simply fucking read. He didn’t say it’s none of your business how much they’re paid. He said it’s none of your business whether they form a union. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/27 "2012-08-30T17:11:01Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > In many industries, unionization had the effect of making American workers uncompetitive. The automobile industry is a textbook example. Over time, pay and benifits for (unionized) auto workers became so lavish, that the domestic car makers had trouble making money even when their cars were selling well. And when a recession hit, they lost fortunes. In the end, it drove General Motors and Chrysler into bankruptcy, and Ford very nearly so. Fortunately, GM and Chrysler came through bankruptcy in good shape, and have gotten their labor costs under control. > > Other industries were not so lucky. The garment industry, for example. Almost no clothing is made in the US anymore. That’s more due to changes in trade policy than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/28 "2012-08-30T17:12:36Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > I can only speak for myself, but my perception of unions is that they are trying to monopolize labor, and I consider union members overpaid (although not lazy or incompetent). Did it ever occur to you that perhaps non-union members are underpaid? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/29 "2012-08-30T17:13:38Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > He didn’t say it’s none of your business how much they’re paid. He said it’s none of your business whether they form a union. They’re forming a cartel to monopolise the supply of a resource he is required to buy. That’s his business and, for any other resource but labour, a felony. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/30 "2012-08-30T17:19:04Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > For example, last year, the union told us that the town was going to raise our health insurance costs. But thank god we were in a union, because they fought that… and they were only raised a little. But I did the math. Even if the town had increased our health insurance costs by the amount the union said they would (which wasn’t guaranteed by the way), I would still be paying less for health insurance than I do for my union dues. It’s quite possible that if you didn’t have a union, they would have proposed raising them ALOT more, simply because they could have. Knowing they couldn’t get away with it, they didn’t propose a very big increase. > [@](#): > > Oh, and speaking of union dues. Union reps are always going on and on about how much they help the little guy. But the way the due scale is set up, someone making $25,000 a year has to pay something like $18 every pay period for dues. But someone making $75,000 a year only has to pay like $19 every pay period. > > The people who run unions are criminals, plain and simple. Wow - a flat union dues rate makes then criminals? This is where you lose credibility. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/31 "2012-08-30T17:21:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll tell you what: You get the government to give me $10B, and I’ll pay it back in a few years, too. No. You’re not a multinational corporation. You could get an appropriate-sized loan from the govt. though, such as a student loan. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/32 "2012-08-30T17:34:39Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > They’re forming a cartel to monopolise the supply of a resource he is required to buy. That’s his business and, for any other resource but labour, a felony. Something I’ve never considered before… ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/33 "2012-08-30T17:41:54Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Something I’ve never considered before… It’s a protected right, rather than a felony, because the comparison between huge corporations amassing enormous power and nearly powerless individuals trying to make a decent living is absurd. Unions give employees a voice and some power to get a fair share of what they help to produce (and who turn around and use their wages to buy the stuff they make). Unions are the reason we have a middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/34 "2012-08-30T17:50:11Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > They’re forming a cartel to monopolise the supply of a resource he is required to buy. That’s his business and, for any other resource but labour, a felony. What’s the resource you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/35 "2012-08-30T17:53:36Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > One can make a legitimate case that in these times, unions are no longer necessary, or at least are not in a great many industries or places where workers do have leverage over most employers. What? How? Or is it like vaccination, where the organized labor movement is so much a part of the background, its successes so integrated into the culture, that the benefits become invisible while the perceived costs are clear? As for the question: I suspect part of it is that at one point – and probably still, to an extent – organized crime discovered that ostensibly unionizing workers was a good cover for extortion, which affected how a lot of people thought of unions. And among union-eligible workers, at least here, organized labor doesn’t seem all that unpopular. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/36 "2012-08-30T17:54:55Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The state of California is in a permanent financial disaster. Several California cities have gone bankrupt, while others including Los Angeles will go bankrupt over the next few years. Detroit is a basket case and other city governments in Michigan have been taken over by the state after being unable to meet obligations. And you think Unions have caused this? California has been hurt by housing prices dropping, the drop in employment all around, mismanagement and outright corruption in City governments…and you think the cause is unions? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/37 "2012-08-30T17:56:10Z")
Because of the 13th amendment, with or without unions, employees are allowed to quit. So, it isn’t like employers can “get away with anything”. If you don’t like how you’re being treated, quit. If your skills are difficult to replace, that is a significant lever with which to limit employer abuses. This is essentially how it works today with engineers, programmers, lawyers, and professionals of all stripes. I fully think that teachers belong in this class of labor. They should be given the autonomy to do their jobs as they see fit, and promoted or let go based on merit. As far as unions go, considering “the ability to quit” is the employee’s main weapon, I fully support the right to bargain collectively and to strike. Maybe employers aren’t worried about losing their best welder, but they should be worried about losing _all_ their welders. However, I disagree with things like “closed shops”. It shouldn’t be illegal to hire non-union labor. If your union is so good and beneficial, you shouldn’t have to force people to join it. I also disagree with the focus on seniority. Do unions _try_ to give people the idea their laborers are interchangeable cogs? Because if Bob is the man for the job, it shouldn’t matter that Jim was hired six months earlier. It seems to me that focusing on seniority is like telling employers “Our top priority is NOT quality of work, but rather procedural bullshit”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/38 "2012-08-30T18:09:37Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > However, I disagree with things like “closed shops”. It shouldn’t be illegal to hire non-union labor. If your union is so good and beneficial, you shouldn’t have to force people to join it. But then you get to the freeloader problem. If a worker can get all the benefits of the union without joining, why join? The problem isn’t that the union isn’t “great” it’s that getting those great benefits can be had without joining. If there were a way to exclude workers from the benefits, such as paying them at a lower rate if they aren’t a member, then your suggestion might make sense. > [@](#): > > I also disagree with the focus on seniority. Do unions _try_ to give people the idea their laborers are interchangeable cogs? Because if Bob is the man for the job, it shouldn’t matter that Jim was hired six months earlier. It seems to me that focusing on seniority is like telling employers “Our top priority is NOT quality of work, but rather procedural bullshit”. Sometimes they are interchangable cogs, and management knows it and the workers know it. Do you really want an elaborate performance evaluation system for garbage men? Do they get more credit for how jauntily they lift the can? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/39 "2012-08-30T18:13:15Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s a protected right, rather than a felony, because the comparison between huge corporations amassing enormous power and nearly powerless individuals trying to make a decent living is absurd. Unions give employees a voice and some power to get a fair share of what they help to produce (and who turn around and use their wages to buy the stuff they make). Unions are the reason we have a middle class. Yeah, I agree Unions have helped the little guy, I agree the power of the masses is less than the wealthy. But Unions still manipulate a market. That isn’t allowed for other things. Why for unions? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/40 "2012-08-30T18:23:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If there were a way to exclude workers from the benefits, such as paying them at a lower rate if they aren’t a member, then your suggestion might make sense. Why couldn’t they? I would think, if I were an employer, “I can’t underpay Bob Union because everyone will strike. But I can pay Joe Scab as little as possible and only have to worry about one guy quitting.” I suppose Joe still reaps the benefit of all that on-the-job safety. How much of that is due to unions versus OSHA though? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sometimes they are interchangable cogs, and management knows it and the workers know it. Do you really want an elaborate performance evaluation system for garbage men? Do they get more credit for how jauntily they lift the can? Fair point. Maybe seniority makes sense in cases like this. I was mostly thinking about teachers, but then I think they should be professionals, not union laborers, as I said before. I definitely think somebody has to look out for the old guys though. I’ve seen far too many people laid off at age 63 just so the company can avoid paying a pension. Of course that’s why I think pensions are a bad idea that should be eliminated. On the other hand, if I’m a better pipe fitter than the guy who has been working twice as long as me, why should he get paid more? If people are worth the same, pay them the same, if not, don’t. Makes sense to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=3)