# Unions in America: When did the narrative change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126 "2012-08-30T10:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/401 "2012-09-06T17:47:39Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > More evidence: In Michigan, organized labor has gotten a proposal on the ballot to ammend the state constitution to ensure that collective barganing agreements must be honored no matter what. Basically, they want to make sure their pay and benefits can’t be cut, even if the city or state is on the brink of bankruptcy. I hope to God the measure fails, because if it passes then Michigan will become the same kind of perpetual financial distaster that California is. > > About the only solace is that municipalities can file for bankruptcy in federal court, thus making state laws irrelevant. N.B. The Stockton PD Chief just retired-he’s getting a $205,000/year penson! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/402 "2012-09-06T17:48:07Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > More evidence: In Michigan, organized labor has gotten a proposal on the ballot to ammend the state constitution to ensure that collective barganing agreements must be honored no matter what. Basically, they want to make sure their pay and benefits can’t be cut, even if the city or state is on the brink of bankruptcy. I hope to God the measure fails, because if it passes then Michigan will become the same kind of perpetual financial distaster that California is. Does California have a similar law, and did it cause the financial disasters there? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/403 "2012-09-06T17:49:58Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > N.B. The Stockton PD Chief just retired-he’s getting a $205,000/year penson! Not a union job though. Thanks for noting that the city and state (management) has engaged in irresponsible financial behavior. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/404 "2012-09-06T17:53:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > My claim wasn’t based on incentive structures, it was based on actual physical possibility. A person without job security must scramble to make ends meet, and has no time to go get skills. There’s nothing of psychology in this–it’s simple cause and effect. Huh? I do not understand your point. My climb up the economic ladder in life included several go-nowhere jobs, all lacking job security. My stint as a non-union waitress was an invaluable incentive to finish my college degree. I would have had to do the same amount of work to get my degree no matter where I was employed. In fact, I might argue that my waitress job afforded me more time to study because I could negotiate my hours directly with the owner and not have to go through union stewards to get a day off to take an exam. I made time to acquire skills because I saw a clear advantage in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/405 "2012-09-06T17:59:07Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > In fact, I might argue that my waitress job afforded me more time to study because I could negotiate my hours directly with the owner and not have to go through union stewards to get a day off to take an exam. You schedule your current job hours/ days off through stewards? ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/406 "2012-09-06T18:14:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You schedule your current job hours/ days off through stewards? 😃 No. I am happily retired after 30 years. \>curtsies\< ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/407 "2012-09-06T18:27:22Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Claim: “Violence is near universal.” > Counter: “No it’s not.” > > Which one is a negative statement that is being asked to be proved again? Please also note, my original statement was: > [@](#): > > \*\*Threats \*\*of violence are almost universal. At it was in the context of unions responding to Scabs crossing picket lines. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/408 "2012-09-06T18:36:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Analogy doesn’t follow. But your analogy has broken down. This is not about dating. Of course not. Because we recognize that individual autonomy in dating is sacrosant. We cannot say to someone, “Date, or marry, this person, not because you wish to but because it’s better for society.” Even though society requires that people date, marry, and reproduce, we simply let people go to it, without trying to mandate any results. And that is, I contend, precisely the right model for employment as well. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/409 "2012-09-06T19:20:24Z")
I think I meant something different by “job security” than what you guys mean by the phrase. You guys probably have the correct useage. I’ll try to figure out what I meant to say. Basically, I was thinking about situations quite a bit more dire and chaotic than the ones you guys are describing. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/410 "2012-09-06T19:47:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suppose. But another path would be creating a government training program, and paying unskilled workers government funds to attend that program, so they become skilled. > > It all depends on what you believe the proper role of government to be. > > President Clinton’s speech to the DNC was instructive. He said something like, “If you want a country that’s winner-take-all, vote for Romney. But if you want a country where the policy is we’re all in this together, then President Obama’s plans are the right ones for you.” > > I believe this is one of the most cogent, straightforward statements I have heard in the entire campaign. Obviously he didn’t mean either vision as an absolute – we’re not all this this together to the extent I can show up at his house and say, “Hey, Bill, I’m a little short this week; can you spot me a couple of c-notes 'til payday?” But as a way of describing the proper role of government as seen through the eyes of each party, it’s not a bad way to go. > > You seem to believe that government should force businesses to help out workers – to adopt policies that hurt them a little bit for the greater good of the country. > > I don’t. I think the country will achieve its greatest good when each person works to maximize his own profit and can reap the reward from doing so. I believe that because of the nature of commerce, and the nature of wealth, when everyone seeks to maximize his own profit, the result is more wealth for everyone. > > And as a more overarching statement, I believe that freedom is most important: that even if, by forcing me to work for the benefit of the whole country, you could show that the country got better off than it would otherwise, it’s still wrong to do so. > > But of course that’s simply my belief, and it’s not objectively provable. Doesn’t the government already do this by (in a limited way) way of grant, student loans etc so that ALL people have the opportunity to go to college and better themselves. The fact that we have over a 60% drop out rate in college is telling. I think it tells us that not all of us are slated to graduate from college. If we want to help those 60%, we need to stop lying to them about how to move up in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/411 "2012-09-06T20:37:18Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Doesn’t the government already do this by (in a limited way) way of grant, student loans etc so that ALL people have the opportunity to go to college and better themselves. > > The fact that we have over a 60% drop out rate in college is telling. I think it tells us that not all of us are slated to graduate from college. > If we want to help those 60%, we need to stop lying to them about how to move up in the world. “Skills” are not limited to the general education provided by college. The government can train people on vocational paths as well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/412 "2012-09-06T22:41:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Of course anyone can believe anything they want. > > And I can criticize it for being irrational. > > If you want to believe something, go ahead. If you are posting it here and asking others to believe it, let alone comment on it, it’s perfectly appropriate for someone to say that your belief doesn’t stand up to basic standards of logic. but my beliefs are in line with how unions are perceived. Your’s are not. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/413 "2012-09-06T23:00:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > but my beliefs are in line with how unions are perceived. Your’s are not. Are they? A majority (barely, but still, a majority) of Americans approve of unions in general. The poll was posted earlier in this thread. Not that it matters. Your opinion is what you think of unions, but that doesn’t mean your reasons are the same as others. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/414 "2012-09-06T23:05:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > but my beliefs are in line with how unions are perceived. Your’s are not. Are they? A majority (barely, but still, a majority) of Americans approve of unions in general. The poll was posted earlier in this thread. Not that it matters. Your opinion is what you think of unions, but that doesn’t mean your reasons for thinking it are the same as others. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/415 "2012-09-06T23:28:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Are they? > > A majority (barely, but still, a majority) of Americans approve of unions in general. The poll was posted earlier in this thread. > > Not that it matters. Your opinion is what you think of unions, but that doesn’t mean your reasons are the same as others. The thread is about the downward trend of union appreciation. It was posted at the start of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/416 "2012-09-06T23:50:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The thread is about the downward trend of union appreciation. It was posted at the start of the thread. But you just said your beliefs are in line with how unions are perceived. I don’t think they are. The trend may be down, but unions still win the support of a majority of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/417 "2012-09-07T00:11:26Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But you just said your beliefs are in line with how unions are perceived. I don’t think they are. > > The trend may be down, but unions still win the support of a majority of Americans. The thread is about the downward trend. It’s a question. I answered it. The reason it’s declining is because of what people see and experience around them. Or there’s something in the water. You decide. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/418 "2012-09-07T00:15:40Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Does California have a similar law, and did it cause the financial disasters there? Not that I know of, but the ammendment in question is a pretty damn good way to ensure that cities in financial distress have no way to trim their budgets. Thus, these cities will become a financial burden on the state, which will similarly have no way to trim costs… ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/419 "2012-09-07T00:17:14Z")
No you said how they “are percieved.” That means now, not a trend. To make a trend, you have to have a change. What changed? Did your opinion change with it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/420 "2012-09-07T00:28:51Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No you said how they “are percieved.” That means now, not a trend. To make a trend, you have to have a change. What changed? Did your opinion change with it? No, it means the perception of unions has declined over time. That should be clear from the discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=22)