# Unions in America: When did the narrative change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126 "2012-08-30T10:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/101 "2012-08-31T15:28:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If “negotiation” were truly free and open, then I’d agree with you. > > When unions “negotiate,” they do so by threats – threats of violence and intimidation against strike-breaking workers, and in some places the protection of the law preventing companies from firing striking workers. A negotiation has to include the ability to walk away. > > Without worrying about what may happen to your kneecaps if you try. What a load of bullshit. This kind of thing is very rare these days. It did occur once - but PLENTY of violence also came from the management side too. Don’t bring this crap into this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/102 "2012-08-31T15:29:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think under union rules, hand-waving away evidence can only be done by The International Federation of People Who Have Been Refuted and Don’t Like It. And only on Thursdays. Sorry, but math is math. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/103 "2012-08-31T15:38:38Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > They are considered pampered, lazy, and unanswerable for disciplining from poor job performances. They will strike at the drop of a hat. They should just be happy to have a job in our lousy economy. Personal experience is not particularly convincing evidence. I am not trying to convince anyone to think my way. I am explaining the evolution of my opinions about unions. This “poor job performance” comment reminded me of 2 different grievance hearings I attended where I was (along side the president of the union) representing the interests of the RN(s) being disciplined. The first situation was a male RN who worked ER. He took it upon himself to obtain the home phone number from the file of a very attractive female auto accident victim. Apparently he thought it would be OK to call her personally from his home to “check up on her”. Her husband (oops) did not take kindly to this unnecessary contact with his very pretty wife. I felt dirty representing his “right” to keep his job. He was asked to resign his position and the employer would not give him a negative reference. What were we? The Catholic church? Passing the creep onto unsuspecting future employers? YUK. The second memorable disciplinary meeting I attended was an RN who was caught shooting something into her thigh she claimed was insulin. Why a non diabetic RN would think this would fly as an explanation is beyond me. She was on probation and was “let go”. On to her next employer. Double YUK. “They will strike at the drop of a hat.” Well, I was hospitalized with a life threatening infection last year and experienced a “drop of the hat” strike from a patient’s perspective. The nurses were not walking out because of their OWN wages & working conditions". No! They walked out in “SYMPATHY” for unsuccessful union negotiations at a completely different hospital. Some other union/hospital agreement had gone amok and they were asked (forced) to comply with a one-day “action” to try and force the hand of something they had no direct business with. Here’s my point. There were several nurses who did NOT agree, and they came to work. They had to meet off campus and ride in a van without windows so as not to be seen by the union strikers. If seen/caught going to work, they would have been fined and reprimanded. Following their conscience was against union policy. How did this “sympathy strike” make the nurses union look to John Q Public? I wonder… My opinion of the once stellar nurses union I was proud to be a part of went “south” into the red and has never recovered. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/104 "2012-08-31T15:43:15Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > Personal experience is not particularly convincing evidence. I am not trying to convince anyone to think my way. I am explaining the evolution of my opinions about unions. This “poor job performance” comment reminded me of 2 different grievance hearings I attended where I was (along side the president of the union) representing the interests of the RN(s) being disciplined. > > The first situation was a male RN who worked ER. He took it upon himself to obtain the home phone number from the file of a very attractive female auto accident victim. Apparently he thought it would be OK to call her personally from his home to “check up on her”. Her husband (oops) did not take kindly to this unnecessary contact with his very pretty wife. I felt dirty representing his “right” to keep his job. He was asked to resign his position and the employer would not give him a negative reference. What were we? The Catholic church? Passing the creep onto unsuspecting future employers? YUK. > > The second memorable disciplinary meeting I attended was an RN who was caught shooting something into her thigh she claimed was insulin. Why a non diabetic RN would think this would fly as an explanation is beyond me. She was on probation and was “let go”. On to her next employer. Double YUK. I’m sure you are aware that unions are legally required to represent all workers, even if they don’t like the case. Everyone deserves representation. It’s no different from having a lawyer when accused of a crime. Doesn’t mean they’re not guilty. In both of these cases, the employees were fired. What’s the problem? > [@](#): > > “They will strike at the drop of a hat.” Well, I was hospitalized with a life threatening infection last year and experienced a “drop of the hat” strike from a patient’s perspective. The nurses were not walking out because of their OWN wages & working conditions". No! They walked out in “SYMPATHY” for unsuccessful union negotiations at a completely different hospital. Some other union/hospital agreement had gone amok and they were asked (forced) to comply with a one-day “action” to try and force the hand of something they had no direct business with. Here’s my point. There were several nurses who did NOT agree, and they came to work. They had to meet off campus and ride in a van without windows so as not to be seen by the union strikers. If seen/caught going to work, they would have been fined and reprimanded. Following their conscience was against union policy. If unions didn’t do what they do, the nurse taking care of you might have worked a much longer shift and have less skills (because of lower pay and therefore less attraction for skilled, competent nurses). Is that the kind of nurse you want protecting your life? Sleepy and poorly trained? Not me. How did this “sympathy strike” make the nurses union look to John Q Public? I wonder… My opinion of the once stellar nurses union I was proud to be a part of went “south” into the red and has never recovered. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/105 "2012-08-31T15:53:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > In both of these cases, the employees were fired. What’s the problem? First example: He was permitted to “resign” with a reassurance this would not be discussed in any future job reference. He sexually harassed a patient and lost his job but kept his ability to fool the next employer. Second example: She was let go for not meeting the conditions of her probationary period. Again, with a clean record. Putting future employers at risk NIMBY > [@](#): > > If unions didn’t do what they do, the nurse taking care of you might have worked a much longer shift and have less skills (because of lower pay and therefore less attraction for skilled, competent nurses). Is that the kind of nurse you want protecting your life? Sleepy and poorly trained? Not me. Exactly! I completely agree. Negotiating wages and working conditions is what unions should do. Unfortunately, the “sympathy” strike to which I am referring was not about their wages or their working conditions, but about the incompetence taking place in a DIFFERENT hospital/union negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/106 "2012-08-31T16:16:29Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > First example: He was permitted to “resign” with a reassurance this would not be discussed in any future job reference. He sexually harassed a patient and lost his job but kept his ability to fool the next employer. > > Second example: She was let go for not meeting the conditions of her probationary period. Again, with a clean record. Putting future employers at risk Happens all the time, with or without unions. > [@](#): > > Exactly! I completely agree. Negotiating wages and working conditions is what unions should do. > > Unfortunately, the “sympathy” strike to which I am referring was not about their wages or their working conditions, but about the incompetence taking place in a DIFFERENT hospital/union negotiations. That’s part of the negotiation process. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/107 "2012-08-31T16:30:42Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If unions didn’t do what they do, the nurse taking care of you might have worked a much longer shift and have less skills (because of lower pay and therefore less attraction for skilled, competent nurses). Is that the kind of nurse you want protecting your life? Sleepy and poorly trained? Not me. The nurses strike impacted me directly. I was cared for by a “traveling nurse” who would have given me the wrong medication if I had not been awake enough to ask questions. Unfortunately, not everyone faired as well as I did during this “sympathy” work stoppage. > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. I personally felt short-changed when it came to their sympathy outpouring. I wonder what you would have done in my position. I was too ill for discharge. There was no cause for action directly associated with the hospital where I was. Yet, I had to endure “less skills” and “less competence” at higher pay (traveling nurses make premium bucks). I think locally centered unions which negotiate directly with the employer for wages and working conditions are GREAT. Beyond that, the politically motivated overreach can cause more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/108 "2012-08-31T16:39:09Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I feel that many Americans view unions very differently than they did even a generation ago and I wonder why. I hope I helped answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/109 "2012-08-31T16:51:59Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > The nurses strike impacted me directly. I was cared for by a “traveling nurse” who would have given me the wrong medication if I had not been awake enough to ask questions. Fine. Your complaint isn’t about unions in general. If you want me to say that strikes by union workers in ICUs should be outlawed, fine. That doesn’t apply to labor in general. > [@](#): > > I think locally centered unions which negotiate directly with the employer for wages and working conditions are GREAT. Beyond that, the politically motivated overreach can cause more harm than good. Union members elect their leaders. They should change them if they don’t like them. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/110 "2012-08-31T17:14:26Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Fine. Your complaint isn’t about unions in general. If you want me to say that strikes by union workers in ICUs should be outlawed, fine. That doesn’t apply to labor in general. Actually, in a few states and a few industries, it does. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/111 "2012-08-31T17:28:46Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Actually, in a few states and a few industries, it does. I mean that strikes that threaten lives don’t apply. Striking bus drivers won’t let anyone die of an infection. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/112 "2012-08-31T18:04:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What a load of bullshit. > > This kind of thing is very rare these days. It did occur once - but PLENTY of violence also came from the management side too. > > Don’t bring this crap into this discussion. When is the last time you tried to drive a car through a picket line? Hope you had your car insurance paid up. While leg-breaking and such may be a thing of the past, a ‘scab’ driving through a picket line in front of a factory can expect to get fists hammered on his car, or have it be dented with signs. Tires are still occasionally slashed. But the intimidation of strike-breakers and other people who don’t toe the union line can be more subtle than that. Social ostracization, subtle threats on the job, tools gone missing… My brother is a union worker, and I’ve heard stories. And of course, you hear it and see it on the news. The business can be hurt in other ways, such as having striking workers picket in front of a retail establishment, yelling epithets at customers and scaring them away through intimidation or plain old discomfort. In Wisconsin, union protestors damaged the state Capitol. Union people occupied the Capitol en masse and refused to leave. Buildings were chained shut by union activists. IN 2011, 500 union strikers [stormed a grain terminal in Washington and held the guards against their will.](http://libcom.org/news/longshore-workers-attack-grain-terminal-08092011) In Wisconsin last year, [SEIU protesters disrupted an Ohio Senators’ dinner, and accosted restaurant workers](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/seiu-protesters-disrupt-ohio-senators-dinner-accost-restaurant-workers/) No, this sort of thing never happens any more. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/113 "2012-08-31T18:10:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When is the last time you tried to drive a car through a picket line? Hope you had your car insurance paid up. > > While leg-breaking and such may be a thing of the past, a ‘scab’ driving through a picket line in front of a factory can expect to get fists hammered on his car, or have it be dented with signs. Tires are still occasionally slashed. Wow, you sure retreated fast from kneecaps being broken, didn’t ya? > [@](#): > > But the intimidation of strike-breakers and other people who don’t toe the union line can be more subtle than that. Social ostracization, subtle threats on the job, tools gone missing… My brother is a union worker, and I’ve heard stories. And of course, you hear it and see it on the news. Sure. And there are plenty of stories about intimidation of union activists or organizers by businesses too. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/114 "2012-08-31T18:11:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I mean that strikes that threaten lives don’t apply. Striking bus drivers won’t let anyone die of an infection. Last year in my city, a union boss called an illegal wildcat strike of hospital support staff. They walked off the job without notice, leaving the patients without food or sanitary care. My wife worked on a children’s ward, and everyone left (nurses, management) had to scramble around to feed the kids, make sure the sanitary conditions were kept, etc. It created dangerous conditions because people had to be left unsupervised and untrained people had to be involved in patient care. Had _other people_ not stepped up and done the work of those clowns, they would have left children to go hungry and sick people left in soiled bedding. Nice. And they did it without notice, and without negotiation. It was apparently just an attempt to show their power. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/115 "2012-08-31T18:15:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Wow, you sure retreated fast from kneecaps being broken, didn’t ya? I never said a thing about kneecaps being broken. I await your apology. And nice attempt at deflecting the issue, which is that YOUR claim of union violence being a thing of the past appears to be not really true. > [@](#): > > Sure. And there are plenty of stories about intimidation of union activists or organizers by businesses too. That could be. Have you got some cites? I provided cites for my information. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/116 "2012-08-31T18:21:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I never said a thing about kneecaps being broken. I await your apology. Sorry. That was Bricker. > [@](#): > > And nice attempt at deflecting the issue, which is that YOUR claim of union violence being a thing of the past appears to be not really true. I didn’t claim that. But hey, you cited absolutely no incidents of bodily harm, so… > [@](#): > > That could be. Have you got some cites? I provided cites for my information. [http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/03/worker-suppression.html](http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/03/worker-suppression.html) But I’m not here to go back and forth. We both know there are incidents on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/117 "2012-08-31T18:23:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Last year in my city, a union boss called an illegal wildcat strike of hospital support staff. It was illegal. What else do you want? It’s already illegal. And union “bosses” (elected leaders) can’t “call” strikes. Most strikes are voted on by the membership. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/118 "2012-08-31T18:24:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What a load of bullshit. > > This kind of thing is very rare these days. It did occur once - but PLENTY of violence also came from the management side too. > > Don’t bring this crap into this discussion. Oh, yes, I remember my grandfather sat me on his knee and told about the old days, back in [2011](http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/courts/article563253.ece), when things like this happened. And what’s almost worse than the violence is the efforts to legitimize it: > [@](#): > > In October, U.S. Magistrate Judge Hugh B. Scott ruled that prosecutors improperly used the Hobbs Act, a federal extortion law, to indict Local 17 members. He also recommended that charges against the 12 indicted union leaders be dropped. > > In his ruling, which amounted to a recommendation, Scott cited Emmons and suggested that the use of force “to achieve a legitimate labor objective” cannot be prosecuted under the Hobbs Act. Thank goodness that idiot magistrate judge was overruled by a real judge. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/119 "2012-08-31T18:28:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oh, yes, I remember my grandfather sat me on his knee and told about the old days, back in [2011](http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/courts/article563253.ece), when things like this happened. I said rare, not never. It is so rare that to bring it up is pure appeal to emotion. Nobody believes violence is acceptable. Get back on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/120 "2012-08-31T18:31:29Z")
Bodily harm, from my previous cite: > [@](#): > > Their goal, prosecutors contend, was to force construction companies into hiring Local 17 workers and punishing those who refused. > > As evidence, the indictment lists 75 separate instances of alleged wrongdoing by the union. The allegations range from a death threat against a representative for a non-union contractor to a knife attack on the president of another company. > > The indictment also details a 2004 encounter in which Local 17 members surrounded a construction company representative at the gate to a work site in Dunkirk. > > “You’re not working here today,” one of the defendants is alleged to have said. “You’re gonna get hurt.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=7)