# Unions in America: When did the narrative change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126 "2012-08-30T10:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/161 "2012-09-01T23:44:06Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > I don’t like my money (union dues or taxes) to be foolishly spent. For example, local government (Detroit) having to employ a horseshoer, even though they have no horses. The union head declares that “it is not possible to eliminate positions.” [Link](http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/17404) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/162 "2012-09-02T00:45:29Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > For example, local government (Detroit) having to employ a horseshoer, even though they have no horses. The union head declares that “it is not possible to eliminate positions.” [Link](http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/17404) Does the contract say they can’t eliminate those positions? If not, then you have no point. Unfortunately, the story you cited doesn’t say. It vaguely implies it by quoting the union official, but he’s actually saying that the city has too few workers in general, not that it needs to employ a horseshoer. So unless the contract forbids dumping the horseshoer, you have no point. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/163 "2012-09-02T00:58:02Z")
So here is the Gallup data on how we view unions: > **[In U.S., Labor Union Approval Steady at 52%](https://news.gallup.com/poll/157025/labor-union-approval-steady.aspx)** > > Fifty-two percent of Americans approve of labor unions, unchanged from 2010-2011 and just above the 48% low. Americans say unions will be weaker rather than stronger in the future, and prefer they be less rather than more influential. You can track Union approval go from 72% or so in 1936 (highest was 75%) to 52% in 2011 in the chart. It would be interesting to map this against the percent of the US workforce who are union represented - I would assume a high correlation (as fewer are represented, fewer support). As for the factors that drive negative views of unions (my random hypothesis list): 1. Not as many people being represented. 2. Public Employee Union horror stories in the press e.g. sexual predator teachers who stay on the payroll while the representation process works itself out. 3. The outright power of public employee unions (when the LA Times says that the teachers union is the most powerful force in California politics - that does not help your image given the state of our state). 4. Pay levels that others find too high, especially during a recession. Again - this is a bigger issue with public employee unions. 5. Articles about union related violence. 6. The grocery strike in CA lost support when they messed with Thanksgiving supplies. People who WERE supportive changed their mind when they couldn’t get their groceries. So what you have is a lot of bad press, without much good stuff. Bringing up Triangle again and again is ancient history, and nobody thinks that a schoolteacher or a cop is locked into a sweatshop where they will die in a fire. I personally think that the unions represent a capitalistic good - workers should be able to band together and offer their services as a group. I think that some unions have been as shortsighted as their corporations when it comes to short term profits at the expense of long term viability. I think that public employee unions need significant reform. Their ability to impact the elections that determine their own pay levels leaves an opening for corruption that is too large in my opinion. As for the trade shows, I just palm $20-50 to the union guy working my area, and I get left alone when setting up my own stuff - and my power and net is always working fine too. My gear gets magically delivered early, and picked up on-time letting me make my flight. I learned that one long ago, and budget for it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/164 "2012-09-02T01:06:33Z")
Thanks for that post,\*\* Algher. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/165 "2012-09-02T12:07:45Z")
Regarding the Detroit position–it is for a _farrier_–shoeing horses is a tiny part of what they do. Mostly, they are custom iron-workers. If the sewer & water boys have him around, it is likely for custom pipe shaping. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/166 "2012-09-02T13:45:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Thanks for that post,\*\* Algher. \*\* Are you okay with **Algher** ’s assertion that it is necessary to bribe a union official in order not to be harrassed at a trade show? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/167 "2012-09-02T14:02:41Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > So what you have is a lot of bad press, without much good stuff. Bringing up Triangle again and again is ancient history, and nobody thinks that a schoolteacher or a cop is locked into a sweatshop where they will die in a fire. Agreed. And I even get this crap as a member of a union. All the time, I hear the union stooge say “If you didn’t have a union, your employer could do “A,” “B,” and “C” and then where would you be?” “A” is usually some ridiculously unsafe work condition that is covered by OSHA… i.e. Management will send you up on the roof to patch the leak without gloves or water when it’s 110 degrees outside! “B” is usually some far-fetched job requirement that is specifically outlawed by civil service rules… i.e. Management will force you to work 50 hours a week! And “C” is usually so retarded that I debate internally whether or not to punch him… i.e. Management will make you strip down to your undies and dance in the street to lure patrons in! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/168 "2012-09-02T14:24:44Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Regarding the Detroit position–it is for a _farrier_–shoeing horses is a tiny part of what they do. > Mostly, they are custom iron-workers. > > If the sewer & water boys have him around, it is likely for custom pipe shaping. The job is as posted and cannot be eliminated. that’s the whole point about mentioning it in the first place. It CANNOT be eliminated. You’re trying to hand-wave this away by saying they give the person something to do. That’s a poor business model to work with. It does not serve the business or municipality or the union workers themselves because that extra job comes out of everybody’s paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/169 "2012-09-02T14:27:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Are you okay with **Algher** ’s assertion that it is necessary to bribe a union official in order not to be harrassed at a trade show? No. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/170 "2012-09-02T14:29:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The job is as posted and cannot be eliminated. that’s the whole point about mentioning it in the first place. It CANNOT be eliminated. There is NOTHING in the cited article that proves that the job can’t be eliminated. There was just a union official saying it can’t. And when you read it, you see that he actually meant that the city was short of staff, not that that particular position is legally or contractually permanent. You have no case at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/171 "2012-09-02T14:41:13Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > There was just a union official saying it can’t. And when you read it, you see that he actually meant that the city was short of staff, not that that particular position is legally or contractually permanent. The trouble is, and part of the reason unions are negatively regarded, is that he was lying. > [@](#): > > The Detroit Water and Sewerage Department (DWSD) has a large debt, rising water prices and inefficient services — using almost twice the number of employees per gallon as other cities like Chicago. > [@](#): > > John Riehl, president of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees Local 207, which represents many of the DWSD employees, told the Detroit Free Press that the department needs more workers. > [@](#): > > “For unions and the whole idea of collective bargaining, this is the kind of report that just makes any sort of future very, very hard to negotiate,” Henderson wrote. “It suggests that collective bargaining turns government into a provider of jobs instead of public services.” The water department is bloated, expensive, and inefficient. The union boss responds by saying it needs to be made even more expensive, bloated, and inefficient. That’s part of the reason why “the narrative has changed”. Because big labor has become just as bad as what it said it was fighting. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/172 "2012-09-02T14:49:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The trouble is, and part of the reason unions are negatively regarded, is that he was lying. First of all, no, he wasn’t. His comment was misinterpreted. He was just saying that workers are needed, not that they are legally or contractually required to be kept. Second, that wasn’t the original claim. The claim was that the job couldn’t be dropped. It wasn’t about a lie. > [@](#): > > The water department is bloated, expensive, and inefficient. The union boss responds by saying it needs to be made even more expensive, bloated, and inefficient. Says you. He has a different opinion. Unless you are intimately familiar with the details of the city’s budget and staff, you don’t know any better than anyone else. The union guy certainly knows more about it than you do. You’re just automatically taking the side of management and against the union, because you are biased. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/173 "2012-09-02T14:51:03Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > To say “unions are bad because some of my dues go to some things I don’t agree with” is kind of silly to say because that is the case in many situation. Please quote me where I said “Unions are bad”. I never said that. I know I never said that because that is not my position. You asked about the possible causes of changing perceptions concerning unions. Unions can be a very good power base for otherwise powerless workers. In my particular situation, my union represented a not-so-powerless group, highly educated and licensed individuals who could pretty much find employment anywhere. Such worker groups are less likely to get replaced without cause. Having said that, I think that the traffic controllers also thought they were irreplaceable, and that attitude played a part in their failure. In this economy, workers who previously might have thought of themselves as irreplaceable better think again. I know dozens of young people who would jump at the chance to step into the shoes of a firefighter or a teacher. Pretty much any profession with prestige, decent pay, and benefits. With that said, my overall perception is that less skilled workers are more easily replaced in a work stoppage. They probably know this and and thusly become far more staunch union supporters than I ever was. Here is a question: Do you think union workers who are unlicensed, with less formal education/training and therefore more easily replaceable are more or less likely to resort to violence (a sign of desperation) during a work stoppage or a lock out? Does desperation and knowledge you can be quickly replaced play a part in the genesis of union violence? I tend to think it does, but I could be convinced otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/174 "2012-09-02T15:04:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Says you. He has a different opinion. Unless you are intimately familiar with the details of the city’s budget and staff, you don’t know any better than anyone else. The union guy certainly knows more about it than you do. You’re just automatically taking the side of management and against the union, because you are biased. Not exactly exceptionally logical. We’re all approaching this from our own perspective which is often based on our own experience as much as by what we read. " The union guy certainly knows more about it than you do." And, who is \*more biased \*than “the union guy”. His personal income depends on defending his position that more workers are necessary. More workers = more dues = a raise for him = a huge bias. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/175 "2012-09-02T16:39:33Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > " The union guy certainly knows more about it than you do." And, who is \*more biased \*than “the union guy”. His personal income depends on defending his position that more workers are necessary. Of course. I didn’t say he was right or we should accept what he said. He’s certainly biased. I’m just saying that his opinion is worth more than Shodan’s. As is the opinion of city officials. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/176 "2012-09-02T18:12:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > First of all, no, he wasn’t. His comment was misinterpreted. He was just saying that workers are needed… That’s the lie. > [@](#): > > Says you. He has a different opinion. So did the consultant, and the editorial writer. > [@](#): > > Unless you are intimately familiar with the details of the city’s budget and staff, you don’t know any better than anyone else. Based on the fact that Detroit pays twice as much per gallon of water as comparable cities, no, my opinion is worth much more than the self-serving shit dished out by the union boss. > [@](#): > > The union guy certainly knows more about it than you do. No, he doesn’t. He’s just greedy and self-serving. > [@](#): > > You’re just automatically taking the side of management and against the union, because you are biased. I hope you don’t expect anyone to believe that you are not biased, because I don’t think that’s going to happen. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/177 "2012-09-02T18:18:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Bricker, the Longview Example isn’t a very good one for your purposes since, apparently, the union members involved believed tha _union members_ had been attacked first. This wasn’t a case of them thinking it’s generally legitimate to be violent against people not in agreement with their actions as a union. All 500 of them believed this? And they believed their union brothers had been attacked by office equipment and windows? Ok. Then I have a new reason unions are viewed negatively. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/178 "2012-09-02T18:19:35Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Do you want pride, or a living? Both. But if I can only earn a living at the point of a gun, metaphorical though it may be, i’d rather be on food stamps. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/179 "2012-09-02T18:25:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > All 500 of them believed this? I assume so. 😕 Word travels… > [@](#): > > And they believed their union brothers had been attacked by office equipment > and windows? To reiterate: This is not a good example for your point because it is apparently not a case of union members thinking violence against opponents is legitimate in itself, but rather is apparently a case of union members thinking that violence against violent opponents is legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126/180 "2012-09-02T19:22:03Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > In many industries, unionization had the effect of making American workers uncompetitive. The automobile industry is a textbook example. Over time, pay and benifits for (unionized) auto workers became so lavish, that the domestic car makers had trouble making money even when their cars were selling well. And when a recession hit, they lost fortunes. In the end, it drove General Motors and Chrysler into bankruptcy, and Ford very nearly so. Fortunately, GM and Chrysler came through bankruptcy in good shape, and have gotten their labor costs under control. > > Other industries were not so lucky. The garment industry, for example. Almost no clothing is made in the US anymore. I would point out that Japan and Germany both have VERY strong labor movements. > **[How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/)** > > A BMW assembly plant in Leipzig, Germany. In 2010, Germany produced more than 5.5 million automobiles; the U.S produced 2.7 million. At the same time, the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in... We got outmanaged, outdesigned and outproduced, not outpriced. As for the garment industry, we were never going to hold onto that industry. Garment manufacture is a labor intensive process that requires a skill that you can pick up in about 2 or 3 weeks. Labor costs are a big part of the cost of production and you simply cannot compete on mass market clothing manufacture. This leads to skill atrophy and now hardly anyone makes clothing in America anymore. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > American workers desperately need unions or something like them. Maybe a trade association like thing would be better and more modern. A labor party would be good. A party that was more interested in long term outcomes for people who work for a living. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If you really think the government just gives unions whatever they want, you’re really naive. It might happen in some state and local governments, but not everywhere, and not on the federal level. Just would like to point out that federal unions are not allowed to negotiate for wages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-america-when-did-the-narrative-change/633126.md?page=10)