# Unions in government sector - possible to remove? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864 "2010-04-21T15:43:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![canadiankorean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2bfe46/32.png) [@canadiankorean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canadiankorean)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/61 "2010-04-23T05:26:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The real money of course is being gobbled up by the Bankers. Goldman just gave themselves another 5 billion in bonuses. That is tax money. But at least they aren’t unions. Then you would be pissed off. But who are you to question your betters. Just jump all over a guy working for a paycheck. Your position is equal or above them so you have a right to criticize. But don’t crab at those who have perfected the eating of tax money. [http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/01/22/snoozing-ttc.html](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/01/22/snoozing-ttc.html) Love how I’m jumping over the ‘working’ guy. The union blamed the public for taking this picture… Instead of apologizing and fixing laziness in the work, they blamed the public for taking pics. ---
**Author:** ![canadiankorean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2bfe46/32.png) [@canadiankorean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canadiankorean)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/62 "2010-04-23T05:29:02Z")
> [@canadiankorean](#): > > [http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/01/22/snoozing-ttc.html](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/01/22/snoozing-ttc.html) > > Love how I’m jumping over the ‘working’ guy. > The union blamed the public for taking this picture… > Instead of apologizing and fixing laziness in the work, they blamed the public for taking pics. Oh here’s another one… lovely union workers. [http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2010/01/22/second-photo-emerges-of-another-ttc-napper.aspx](http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2010/01/22/second-photo-emerges-of-another-ttc-napper.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/63 "2010-04-23T06:48:22Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about. Bringing up management with regards to this topic is a massive non sequitur. You think management policies have nothing to due with labor negotiations? > [@](#): > > No, you don’t. Not unless you happen to have at least a couple of thousand friends that feel the same way you do. And even then, you’re still only at the level of asking them nicely to desist, instead of being able to cut your ties unilaterally. Yes, I do. It may be only one voice among many thousands. But it exists. Unlike my control over the management of General Motors which is zero. Which, coincidentally, appears to be the influence the facts have on your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![canadiankorean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2bfe46/32.png) [@canadiankorean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canadiankorean)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/64 "2010-04-23T13:07:03Z")
Of those of you who defend the union, how many rely on it for income? Either through parents working in one, spouse or children working in a union. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/65 "2010-04-23T13:51:22Z")
Not me. I’m don’t have any family members or personal friends who are in a union… except maybe one high school friend who is an airline pilot. When I was younger, I worked alongside unions in several jobs I had. I was not in a unionized position. I don’t consider that union’s performance to be ideal. There were continual squabbles about who is supposed to do what work, some workers were just deadbeats, and so on. So why am I not anti-union? Because the criticisms of the union I worked with could equally apply to management. Why are you asking about whether I rely on a union for income? What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/66 "2010-04-23T13:52:48Z")
It is not a case of defending unions, it is a case of saying that what is good for managers in terms of pay deals, is plenty good enough for workers. Whatever argument you use to justify the salaries of managers, you can make a counter argument that workers should also have similar means of expression and negotiation. There are no bad workers, only bad managers. If the workers are not doing their job, then why are managers letting them get away with it? Managers have responsibilities, and if they can’t or won’t make use of them, whose fault is it? The only thing that is really under discussion is the balance of power in the labour market, and nothing else, sometimes it goes too far one way, and in turn it goes too far the other, but the reality is that the power tends to be in the hands of managers and it is unusual to see it go the other way. There are no bad workers, only bad managers. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/67 "2010-04-23T14:29:42Z")
> [@furt](#): > > No, they do not. But this thread is not about white-collar workers, who are not unionized. I have several freinds, and a girlfriend who work white-collar government jobs. They do make less than private-sector equivalents; they also have more security and less stress. I know multiple lawyers and MBAs who work 40 hours a week; those are quite rare everywhere except government. > > With unemployment at 10%, _nobody_ has a hard time finding workers. But as I’m currently unemployed and I live in greater D.C., I’ve had \*lots \*of people advise me to get a government job. My wife works for the federal government as a white-collar worker. Her pay is good, but while there used to be a lot of security and little stress, that is no longer the case. She is under tremendous pressure to meet various metrics. The job is extremely stressful. Exployees who don’t meet performance expectations are unceremoniously walked out of the door. I think it is because many applicants have this expectation that working for the federal government will be a cake walk. Some new employees recalibrate, but many do not. Her director has no problem firing people who don’t adapt quickly enough. Oh, and she does belong to a union, but it is not very powerful. The union will not lift a finger for an employee fired for job performance issues. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/68 "2010-04-23T14:38:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Have you ever asked for a raise? If so, why didn’t you just quit and find another higher paying job? > > In other words, why is it that anti-union types think that the answer to every employee complaint is that the employee should quit? I’m not an anti-union type. People are free to associate and form a union if they choose to do so. Companies are free to fire them, and hire someone else if they are free to do so. If the formation of a union makes a company non competitive, then they will fail. Unless the government bails them out, as they did with GM. Or unless the ‘company’ is not subject to any competition, such as the government itself. The problem is when the government and the union are on the same side of the bargaining table, as they are today. And they are bargaining with _our_ money, taken from us against our will. One of the most bizarre sights of the past few years was John Corzine (then gov of New Jersey) pumping up the government-employee union crowd with cries of “I’m going to fight for you, and a fair contract!” before his recent (unsucessful) re-election bid against Christie. Hey! Dude! Corzine! You are supposed to be on _my_ side! You are supposed to be negotiating _against_ the unions, on my behalf. I’m the taxpayer. I’m the customer. It’s my money. Who is on my side, here? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/69 "2010-04-23T14:47:11Z")
Also, I work for local government agency, and actually belong to a union as well, which is unusual for an engineer. Being a union member is mandatory for the position. I will say that there is one big benefit to belonging to a union, and that is protection of retirement benefits. When I worked for a private engineering consultant, I worked on an at-will basis and could be fired at any time. However, I had a 401(k), which I could take with me. I also knew I could quickly get a job with a competing firm. One frustrating thing with working in the private sector was that they did not readily give promotions and raises to in-house employees, so over time one’s salary tended to fall below the market value. The only way to get a significant raise was to jump ship and go to another firm. With my current government job, I have a defined-benefit pension, and raises are the same for everyone. However, without a union, nothing could stop my employer from firing me before I vest in the pension plan. If I leave my job before I vest, I simply get my contributions back. This is money that I could have invested in an IRA or 401(k). So as long as there is a defined-benefit pension plan, I want the union there to protect my benefits, which are not transportable. If my agency dumped the pension plan and went toward a 401(k) plan, they’d have a lot more trouble attracting and retaining qualified personnel, because the job is very stressful and bureaucratic. On the other hand, the union tends to protect under-performing employees, which is maddening for the rest of us, who have to pick up the slack. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/70 "2010-04-23T14:50:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Great example. The cost of living in San Francisco is about 1/3 higher than the average American cost of living. [Cite.](http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/bestcities_sort/index.php?sortby=cost&sortorder=DESC) > > Do you expect bus drivers in SF to make the national average, so in effect be 1/3 poorer than the average American bus driver? I pointed out that $40,000 is about the national average for ALL WORKERS; that includes brain surgeons with 20 years experience. (looking it up, it’s actually [$42,270](http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes_nat.htm#b00-0000)) Call me crazy, but I don’t think “entry-level bus driver” should be a high-paying job. And in the private sector, it isn’t. I have no problem with them making a decent living (drivers at Greyhound start at about $35K, though I’d bet most of them have some experience); but when a bus driver is pulling down over $100K a year of taxpayer money, something is seriously awry, no matter where they live. Anecdotally, I had dinner last night with two government employees. Topics of conversation included 1) my girlfreind’s unfirable coworker who spends 6 hours a day playing solitaire, 2) our friend’s bump in salary (she is a proofreader) which will enable her to make almost $60,000 a year one year out of college, 3) how I need to work on making my resume more government-jargon-oriented in order to get government jobs, because 4) the people who process resumes for federal agencies are brain-dead unfirable idiots. ---
**Author:** ![canadiankorean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2bfe46/32.png) [@canadiankorean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canadiankorean)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/71 "2010-04-23T14:53:31Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > I’m not an anti-union type. > > People are free to associate and form a union if they choose to do so. > > Companies are free to fire them, and hire someone else if they are free to do so. > > If the formation of a union makes a company non competitive, then they will fail. Unless the government bails them out, as they did with GM. Or unless the ‘company’ is not subject to any competition, such as the government itself. > > The problem is when the government and the union are on the same side of the bargaining table, as they are today. And they are bargaining with _our_ money, taken from us against our will. > > One of the most bizarre sights of the past few years was John Corzine (then gov of New Jersey) pumping up the government-employee union crowd with cries of “I’m going to fight for you, and a fair contract!” before his recent (unsucessful) re-election bid against Christie. > > Hey! Dude! Corzine! You are supposed to be on _my_ side! You are supposed to be negotiating _against_ the unions, on my behalf. I’m the taxpayer. I’m the customer. It’s my money. Who is on my side, here? In Toronto, the union holds a lot of voting power. They can literally change who gets elected. That’s how our current mayor got in. So he defends unions and gives in to their demands after a small act of defiance to look like he is on the public taxpayer side. Management can’t fire bad workers because of the union. The union protects them. That’s one of the issues. I wouldn’t have a problem with unions if they managed things well. Fire lazy workers, don’t keep people around if the job doesn’t require it, and don’t hold the public hostage so you can give the workers 3-4% raises every year (private sector is getting 1-1.5%)… I just want the union/government to not waste my tax money with an inefficient workforce. If you get a union lawyer that works 80 hours and gets things done very quickly, sure pay him/her 20% more than private sector. But do not keep 3 lawyers hanging around doing the job of 1 and pay them 20% above private sector. that’s wasting my money. Fire 2 of them. And as always, do not pay a low skill job like cashier or ticket collecting 60k+… On another note, how could a group of people start a union? A very good article in the Toronto Star on daycare workers. Daycare workers have to get a diploma, get no summer vacation like teachers, etc. Yet they make half of what a union ttc ticket collector makes. These are workers entrusted to educating our infants in the very formative years. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/72 "2010-04-23T14:56:02Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > You are wrong about this. At my federal agency, the attorneys are part of the bargaining unit unless they are classified as confidential. Many federal agencies have bargaining unit eligible OGC units that are either part of AFGE or NFFE (two of the biggest federal unions). I’m an OGC (Office of General Counsel) attorney as well as a volunteer union steward for one of the big two. I have to go to training for my labour position and meet plenty of unionized white collar federal workers from a variety of different agencies. I stand corrected. The government lawyers I know are non-union, and I assumed. Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/73 "2010-04-23T14:58:25Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > The problem arises because public sector jobs are insulated from any kind of competition. In an ideal system, unions will protect a worker, but must balance the act of striking and demanding of better pay/benefits with the goal of staying competitive in their sector. No such balance exists with public sector jobs. No matter how inefficient most public systems are, they will continue, as most don’t have to stay competitive. They control a monopoly, or a near monopoly, on their product or service. They will continue to push for better compensation (as any sane worker would), but there is little pressure to become more efficient or cut costs. That’s a very bad combination for the consumer. Which would make a lot of sense if federal employees were allowed to go on strike. > [@](#): > > Can we remove them, or is it a good idea? I think it would be good for the taxpayer. When you consider salary and benefits and job security, most public sector jobs in the US offer [considerably better compensation then the private sector](http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0605-35.pdf) (Warning pdf), and have done so at an [ever increasing rate, well beyond that of the private sector.](http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/08/24/federal-pay-continues-rapid-ascent/) This does not reflect the fact that the government has been outsourcing more and more of the unskilled and low skilled labor to the private sector. Perhaps it might make sense if the CATO institute compared salaries for similar job descriptions. A government employed doctor typically makes less than a private sector doctor, an SEC lawyer makes less than a private sector securities lawyer, an FDIC bank regulator makes less than bank controllers, etc. There are probably areas where you can make more in the government than you would in the private sector, but I can’t think of what those areas might be. > [@](#): > > Many are surely performing work that could not be effectively done in the private sector, and certainly many of those public sector employees earn the pay they get. Looking at the figures though, I’m inclined to say that public sector employees are over compensated in general, and I’m sure that the unions don’t help the situation. As far as I can tell, Unions can’t do very much when it comes to federal pay (other than lobby congress), its part of the annual budget process. The one thing that makes federal employees different tahn private sector employees is that theya re very hard to fire. This is intentional to prevent the entire bureaucracy from turning over every administration and to prevent the over-politicization of the bureaucracy. The unfortunate side effect is that it becomes very difficult to get rid of dead wood. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/74 "2010-04-23T15:00:38Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > In _some_ states public employees can strike. In Missouri, they specifically are forbidden by law to strike. Public employees can, by law, bargain collectively, but they can not strike, nor are public agencies (governments, school districts, etc.) required to submit to binding arbitration. State employees can strike in all sorts of places, federal employees cannot strike anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/75 "2010-04-23T15:08:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How is it even possible to forbid workers to strike? What do you do if they all just happen to call in sick with the blue flu all on the same day? You can’t arrest someone for calling in sick, can you? Its a federal crime to strike. I don’t know how they define it but I think the last timea nyone tried was the air traffic controllers strike during the Reagan years. IOW, the federal employee unions are not extorting concessions with threat of strike, which might explaint their relatively poor pay compared to their private sector counterparts. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/76 "2010-04-23T15:10:36Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > You can demand a doctor’s certification, and if they can’t produce it, you can call it an unauthorized absence/abuse of sick leave and fire them. Federal employees do not need to provide a doctor’s note unless they take more than three sick days ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/77 "2010-04-23T15:19:49Z")
> [@canadiankorean](#): > > I’m complaining that my tax dollar is being misused. And wouldn’t capitalism tell you to move somewhere else? Free choice and all that. In the US, we are being told that tighter regulations on bankers will make them all move to London or Nevis. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/78 "2010-04-23T15:23:28Z")
> [@furt](#): > > But this thread is not about white-collar workers, who are not unionized. Yes they are. > [@](#): > > I have several freinds, and a girlfriend who work white-collar government jobs. They do make less than private-sector equivalents; they also have more security and less stress. I know multiple lawyers and MBAs who work 40 hours a week; those are quite rare everywhere except government. But they make less? right? even on an hourly basis, they make less right? > [@](#): > > With unemployment at 10%, _nobody_ has a hard time finding workers. But as I’m currently unemployed and I live in greater D.C., I’ve had \*lots \*of people advise me to get a government job. I have worked for some fo the most elite law firms in the world and it was easier to get those jobs tahn it was to get a job in government. Not because standards are so high but because the procedure for hiring a federal employee is so complicated. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/79 "2010-04-23T15:23:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its a federal crime to strike. I don’t know how they define it but I think the last timea nyone tried was the air traffic controllers strike during the Reagan years. IOW, the federal employee unions are not extorting concessions with threat of strike, which might explaint their relatively poor pay compared to their private sector counterparts. The CSRA (Civil Service Reform Act) eliminated the right to strike. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864/80 "2010-04-23T15:28:12Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I stand corrected. The government lawyers I know are non-union, and I assumed. Thanks for the correction. Unless they are classified as confidential, supervisory or in a very special agency, your non-union attorney friends are likely to be part of the bargaining unit and the union to which they do not pay dues still owes them a duty of representation under certain circumstances. Moreover, their union negotiates their contract and the rights contained therein. Basically, they’re enjoying a bunch of rights their union team works for (on a volunteer basis). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-in-government-sector-possible-to-remove/536864.md?page=5)