# Unions: The bane of our lives **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561 "2002-07-30T17:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561/41 "2002-08-03T02:26:21Z")
Even the Ed. programs aren’t as bad as all that. Of course every teacher complains about them, and they frequently border on the absurd. I still think, though, that it is reasonable to ask someone who will be in charge of 30 eight to twelve-year-olds to take a few child psychology and development courses, as well as learn some classroom management techniques. Also, the History of Educational Theory courses help bright young teachers discover that the brilliant ideas they were planning to try in their practicum have been thought of before (probably by someone with Dewey in their name) and used in a model school somewhere like Olean. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561/42 "2002-08-03T04:44:35Z")
**Godogsgo13** ’s argument seems fairly easy to understand to me. The teachers union’s ability to get a decent wage for teachers has attracted “bad” teachers to the profession. So, according to **godogsgo13** …the way to get better teachers is to pay them less. Sounds workable…in Bizarro World! ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561/43 "2002-08-03T07:12:42Z")
Of course, if we want to play the cite game… > [@](#): > > ## Actually, you have not provided evidence of Mr. Wrong’s claim, either. Noting that teachers’ unions oppose merit pay and testing does not indicate that they > > ## are way more concerned with getting more jobs for lousy teachers than they are with improving the state of education in the U.S. > > It does indicate that they oppose “testing” that has little to do with actual performance and that they (as most unions) oppose giving tools to administrators to break up unions (which is how they perceive merit pay). ---
**Author:** ![flowers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4bbf92/32.png) [@flowers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flowers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561/44 "2002-08-03T16:41:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by taggert \* > \*\* > > This is a supreme example of the badness of unions. The guy is doing the same work, less, and receiving a whole lot more, plus his wife is not required to work anymore. The only people unions help are the members of the unions, and not society at large. Productivity takes a big downturn. Unions do nothing for people who aren’t their members, and that includes most of us. \*\* I don’t know where you got the idea that I don’t work anymore. I said that I had taken a 2nd job. And my husband is not doing less work. He is gone for 5-6 days at a time, riding in spring ridden trucks (try riding in a buckboard & you will get the idea) pulling 2 trailers through the mountains, in the snow, getting 6 hours of sleep between 15 hour shifts, & has already had one back fusion surgery caused by the bouncing of the equipment. I’m not sure why I’m defending him to someone who apparently doesn’t understand what truck driving really is, but I couldn’t let this go by. Also, I don’t understand why it is a bad thing that unions help their members. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561/45 "2002-08-03T17:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Actually, you have not provided evidence of **Mr. Wrong** ’s claim, either. Noting that teachers’ unions oppose merit pay and testing … indicate[s] that they oppose “testing” that has little to do with actual performance and that they (as most unions) oppose giving tools to administrators to break up unions (which is how they perceive merit pay). Trying to parse this out, I think you were asserting as fact that merit testing does not actually test merit. Cite, please? Sua ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2002, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561/46 "2002-08-04T12:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > but I want to learn more about unions and why people support them as much as I want to prove them wrong. It’s not clear to me how it’s possible to support capitalism without supporting unions. Oh, you may hate a particular union if you own a company, but every good capitalist should love the concept of a union. There are many ways to leverage the value of your resources in a free market system, and joining a union is pretty much the same thing as buying stock in a corporation. If I don’t like my job, I can quit. Of course I need to eat, so if I’m not absolutely sure I can get another job I’d be wise to put up with my manager and his unrealistic demands. The important thing to note here is that _I have a choice_. Now, if a company doesn’t like dealing with unions, they don’t have to. Of course the company needs to turn a profit, so if they’re not absolutely sure they can find competent non-union employees they’d be wise to put up with the union’s demands. Again, the important thing to note here is that _the company has a choice_. It sounds to me as if you feel like there is something _unfair_ about how some unions have a lot of power and influence. The question is, does your sense of injustice on behalf of our nation’s employers deserve any more consideration than my “I hate my stupid job” sense of injustice? Sadly, I’m old enough to realize that my outrage about my crappy job is not going to lead to any new legislation. I’m smart enough to realize that it _shouldn’t_. The choice, after all, is always mine to make. Same’s true for the company. -fh ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561/47 "2002-08-04T13:56:59Z")
I can understand that Union representation is sometimes necessary. My problem with them is that once they become corrupt, they are virtually impossible to reform! Here in Boston, the head of a local union (rpresenting the Film Workers Local-a division of the Teamsters) is under inductment. he is charged with racketeering, conspiracy, and a host of other serious crimes. He (and the local leadership) are all ex-cons, many with long criminal records. These “gems of humanity” extorted money from film crews making movies in the area-at one point, they threatened a woman who ran a canteen truck-she was competing with a mob-owned lunch truck, serving coffee to the movie crews and extras. They basically told her to leave, or she would be beaten to death. This evil crew ran the whole film industry out of bBoston-depriving honest Teamsters from working-the point is, if you were shut out of a movie crew job-how would you complain? Goint to your Teamsters shop steward would gain you nothing-except possibly a beating and a bullet in the head! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unions-the-bane-of-our-lives/121561.md?page=2)