I can’t, but Henry Petroski can; see the book The Evolution of Useful Things. Apparently the reason for the American style is that there were very few forks in early America, and the American usage is, well, what you’d be forced to do if you only had a spoon and a knife–and this usage just kinda became a national habit that stuck around after we got forks.
Ummm… Yes. I am. I do not remember having ever been present when some one threw “God Bless America” into an otherwise unrelated address.
As for cites - what does that have to do with it? I already said that it does happen - you just seem to have a very distorted idea of how often it happens.
As for religious leaders using the expression: aren’t they exactly the people you would expect to use it?
Sorry you find it so upsetting I don’t conform with your preconceptions.
porkchop_d_clown, you’re prevaricating. Your original contention was entirely meaningless – I never claimed American’s “spotaneously shout” anything – and your follow-ups do nothing to defeat my original point. I’ve provide multiple examples of “God Bless America” being an unusually prevalent phrase in the US (unusual as compared to other Western nations), and you haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary. (Incidentally, “ummmm, I haven’t heard this… ummm, EXCEPT here or EXCEPT there”, is NOT evidence that disproves my contention.)
Further, my examples are from YOUR press and my experience; “my own press” is certainly not giving me a “distorted view”.
Rubbish. All I’ve asserted is that the phrase is more common in the US than in other countries. I’ve NEVER asserted that Americans voiced the expression spontaneously, nor that it was an everyday phrase. This was my original assertion:
… followed by
I’ve provided multiple example of “God Bless America” being voiced in mainstream forums in the US. I’ve asserted that it’s a far more common expression than analagous phrases, such as “God Bless Norway” or “God Bless New Zealand”. Now bring the evidence that I was wrong.
Oh please.
Dude? Who stuck a rod up your skirt? Why are you even attacking me?
You state that you find it odd that people in America run around saying “God Bless America” and all I, and others in this thread, have said that it doesn’t happen as often as you seem to think.
I deeply and sorrowfully apologize that my life does not conform with your ideas of how we live over here.
Unless you’ve been watching WKYW (channel 6, Philadelphia, PA) you certainly haven’t been watching “MY” press. Unless you’ve lived here then you certainly have formed a distorted view of America - a view formed by what various media types consider telegenic rather than actual experience.
Why? What am I supposed to be disproving? We have a country of 300 million people. I’m quite certain you could survey the country and find a different person saying “God Bless America” in some public forum every day for a century.
And it would still be statistically insignificant.
[QUOTE=porkchop_d_clown]
Dude? Who stuck a rod up your skirt? Why are you even attacking me?
You state that you find it odd that people in America run around saying “God Bless America” and all I, and others in this thread, have said that it doesn’t happen as often as you seem to think.
[quote]
Again, I have never made that assertion–I’ve even quoted my words back to you!–but still you keep up the fiction that I’ve claimed "America[ns] run around saying “God Bless America”. Go back and read my words. You may be surprised.
Jesus Christ. Are you pulling my leg? YOU asserted “your own press is giving you a distorted view”. My reply was that my cites come from US media sources–i.e. that your assertion was factually incorrect. Is this somehow unclear?
… and for the LAST freakin’ time, I never claimed that. My claim was that (i) American politicans and other public figures commonly use the expression “God Bless America”; and (ii) this would be very unusual in other Western nations (e.g. “God Bless the UK” or “God Bless Sweden” are, by contrast, uncommon.)
Now, my request to you is to stop attacking things I never said (i.e. that ordinary Americans in the street are spouting “God Bless America” as they go out their daily business) and address, ummmm, the POINTS I ACTUALLY MADE.
Is that so hard? Dude?
Nevertheless, it’s my observation that the phrase is acceptable in the US in political speeches and other non-religious occasions, while an equivalent phrase would be frowned upon in other western countries. This BBC article says:
If I read that article correctly, it implies that the religious tone of this phrase would not have been well received by the British public.
As a non-religious person who have live din the US, I found the US to be surprisingly tolerant of such religious statements and actions by the government. The phrase “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance is another example.
So, here’s what I think I typed last time…
Baseball: 14 countries who play the sport professionally doesn’t make it a world sport unless (maybe) those 14 countries engage in international competitions (like cricket does) or has a bona fide World Cup (like soccer and rugby). There are lots of countries with Aussie Rules teams but no-one would dream of mentioning the W word.
Hollywood: Through a unique set or circumstances Hollywood has an edge over the rest of the world: it started at the beginning of the film era when everything was cheap; it’s had 100 years to pay off its set-up costs; it exists in a country with a large and affluent domestic market with a common tongue (Europe could compete but it has to cope with dozens of languages; China has the size and money but the domestic market is too poor); it has developed a recognisable product (scary for an ars gratis artis industry). Remember that for every Matrix there are nine other films that don’t make a profit, don’t get a world release, are withdrawn in the first week, never get out of the can and into the projector. Check out your video shop for films that you’ve never heard of. Hollywood substitutes good filmmaking with mass filmmaking. The law of averages takes care of the rest.
Americanisms: “Mom” - I was amazed when Anakin Skywalker said that.
“Under God” does, in fact, generate a fair amount of controversy in the US. But, in general, I’d agree that most Americans see “God Bless America” to be innocuous, on the order of saying “God Bless You” when you sneeze, or even “Good Bye” (Which is a corruption of God Be With You, IIRC. That might just be a myth, I suppose.)
Still, as I said before - while it does occur, it’s not as if it happens at every speech or public gathering. Rarely enough to allow Jervise to count the number of time it happens, actually.
Cricket manages to have a very successful and competitive World Cup with exactly 14 entering nations.
Yes. The turnover in the US is spectularily low (though, at least here, it has been significantly dropping during the recent years). Also, in some countries (Belgium, Australia) voting is mandatory (you can be fined if you don’t vote).
Don’t know for other countries, but in France, the elections are always held on Sunday. But I doubt it makes a difference (and perhaps it’s even the contrary) since people can leave for the week-end, or have leisure activities. Here, “fisher’s vote” refers to people who don’t vote. So, I somewhat doubt holding the elections on a holyday would change a thing.
I don’t think it’s related to ice being a luxury (I strongly doubt the cost of ice would be significantly higher here) .
During all my childhood I’ve been told that drinking too cold beverages would make me ill (especially when it was hot), and so have been many children. Then, it’s only a matter of habbit. I find drinking really cold beverages unpleasant (actually, I would wait until they warm up, and I essentially never add/ask for ice in anything I drink).
Thanks, my posting etiquette needs some work. 
After all this time trying to wrap my brain around how to greet Americans I have now started answering “Hi, how are you?” with: “Why I’m spectacular, thanks for asking. And you?” Good times are had by all and I’m a better man for it. Still trying to figure “What’s up?” out, though…
I’ve noticed since I started posting here that many of my fellow Europeans (like me) tend to take a condescending and mocking tone when discussing anything American on SDMB, and the Americans tend to get very defensive and …well, aggressive. Has it always been like this?
I don’t think so. I can remember years ago when Europeans on the SDMB were neither condescending nor mocking.
Forgiven. But honestly, don’t believe movies and TV… America is not soaked in rivers of blood and the dead do not choke the streets. You are not at terrible risk of being caught in a running gun-battle.
What’s Up = How’s It going? Anything new?
More or less, yes. We’ve been to some degree or another consider barbarians since before we had a country. For various reasons, Europe has seen itself as the center of civilization and assumes that we are on the periphery. There’s actually an off-reference in Swift’s A Modest Proposal in a similar vein. Obviously, Swift was a satirical writer, but part of the point of the satire is to play off the prejudices of your audience. I don’t think this was mere chance, and from what I uderstand, he was referring to the old colonies there.
“”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled …””
Even after we acheived independance and bargained as equals with Europeans states, I think a lot of those assumptions remained.Europe was still the cultural capital, and it was some time before America had all the creature comforts of the old world. It wasw a nation that till 1860 was still centered mostly around small farms, not the new industrial cities (of course, we had so much more farmland, anyway).
Even after the civil war, American cities were engines of rough-and-ready growth, with large crowded immigrant quarters, new and rather shabby. Perhaps our cities were even more shabby than, say, Victorian-era London. The Germans, when Bismark finally unified them, had a particular hatred of America. It may seem strange, but their was a lot of contempt for the undignified crass American city. I’ve read writings of peple comparing Berlin to a horrible city like Chicago, filled with low-class people. America wasn’t the Devil, but it was still considered rather barbarous, certainly less advanced than the erudite Germans.
I think that todays antoganism is by no means a recent expression, but a mere revealing of a great divide that has been growing for ages. Today, it is expanded by a recent trend towards authortarianism in Europe and the seeming untrustworthiness of the French. The EU is not, in so far as I can tell, a democratic organization. It pays lip service to such, but all the important decisions and policy seem to have been enshrined in the now defunct constitution. That document had constitutional demands for agricultureal policy. Additionally, the real power seems to be intended for a small class of elite bureaucrats, quite insulated from public opinion. Books like http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=9&aid=14204 don’t help matters.
But I think a deeper problem is that a lot of Europeans still see themselves as being the center of the world, even if that is no longer the case. To be honest, Europe needs the US a lot more than we need them. Its a harsh statment, but seemingly true. In the last 20 years, the foreign policy of France has not been a great success, and for all that the US has had failures (does anyone ever not do so?) we have generally succeeded where we put forth the effort. Europeans were unable to shut down Milosovec on their own doorstep, whle the US finished him off and weakened him so much he couldn’t even save himself. Then Europe put on a trial that has quickly become so farcical he’s now technically a member of parliament again. Europe is weak, and I’m not sure even the EU would make it strong again. All their diplomacy sometimes work in Europe, because their the states are reasonably honorable and generally have something to give and something they want. But it doesn’t seem to work outside of Europe, probably because not everyone is honorable and not everyone has their goals. Take Somolia: the Europeans wanted to end the violence (and stupidly, we too got involved in a war we could not win without actual work, which we were not interested in) but that never worked because they never tried to actually work at the root of the problem: the warlords.
I’m also not too sanguine about thge internal structure of Europe. According to some very disturbing trends, a freakishly large German portion of youths now think that our own goverrnment fly the planes into the WTC. From some economic analysis of France and Germany, I have no idea how they intend to pay for their own future - the benefits people demand simply cannot be met with their future tax base, especially while they’re having such a hard time with their economy today. I was in Berlin earlier this year, and I remember how strikingly forlorn some of the older people seemed. The youths were energetic, yes, but I begin to wonder if their aggressive denunciation of “American Imperialism” was not a symptom of internal distress. And there’s still a perception that America is backwards and brutal and barbaric, and that we’ve somehow stolen what’s rightfully Europe’s place in the world.
Forgiven. But honestly, don’t believe movies and TV… America is not soaked in rivers of blood and the dead do not choke the streets. You are not at terrible risk of being caught in a running gun-battle.
What’s Up = How’s It going? Anything new?
More or less, yes. We’ve been to some degree or another consider barbarians since before we had a country. For various reasons, Europe has seen itself as the center of civilization and assumes that we are on the periphery. There’s actually an off-reference in Swift’s A Modest Proposal in a similar vein. Obviously, Swift was a satirical writer, but part of the point of the satire is to play off the prejudices of your audience. I don’t think this was mere chance, and from what I uderstand, he was referring to the old colonies there.
“”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled …””
Even after we acheived independance and bargained as equals with Europeans states, I think a lot of those assumptions remained.Europe was still the cultural capital, and it was some time before America had all the creature comforts of the old world. It wasw a nation that till 1860 was still centered mostly around small farms, not the new industrial cities (of course, we had so much more farmland, anyway).
Even after the civil war, American cities were engines of rough-and-ready growth, with large crowded immigrant quarters, new and rather shabby. Perhaps our cities were even more shabby than, say, Victorian-era London. The Germans, when Bismark finally unified them, had a particular hatred of America. It may seem strange, but their was a lot of contempt for the undignified crass American city. I’ve read writings of peple comparing Berlin to a horrible city like Chicago, filled with low-class people. America wasn’t the Devil, but it was still considered rather barbarous, certainly less advanced than the erudite Germans.
I think that todays antoganism is by no means a recent expression, but a mere revealing of a great divide that has been growing for ages. Today, it is expanded by a recent trend towards authortarianism in Europe and the seeming untrustworthiness of the French. The EU is not, in so far as I can tell, a democratic organization. It pays lip service to such, but all the important decisions and policy seem to have been enshrined in the now defunct constitution. That document had constitutional demands for agricultureal policy. Additionally, the real power seems to be intended for a small class of elite bureaucrats, quite insulated from public opinion. Books like http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=9&aid=14204 don’t help matters. This comment in particular struck me as being very undemocratic: “Referenda are in fact pure gambling. There is no guarantee of a positive outcome, unfortunately.” In other words, people can’t be trusted to make the “right” choice. Its shouldn’t be up to them. Let me choose for you.
But I think a deeper problem is that a lot of Europeans still see themselves as being the center of the world, even if that is no longer the case. To be honest, Europe needs the US a lot more than we need them. Its a harsh statment, but seemingly true. In the last 20 years, the foreign policy of France has not been a great success, and for all that the US has had failures (does anyone ever not do so?) we have generally succeeded where we put forth the effort. Europeans were unable to shut down Milosovec on their own doorstep, whle the US finished him off and weakened him so much he couldn’t even save himself. Then Europe put on a trial that has quickly become so farcical he’s now technically a member of parliament again. Europe is weak, and I’m not sure even the EU would make it strong again. All their diplomacy sometimes work in Europe, because their the states are reasonably honorable and generally have something to give and something they want. But it doesn’t seem to work outside of Europe, probably because not everyone is honorable and not everyone has their goals. Take Somolia: the Europeans wanted to end the violence (and stupidly, we too got involved in a war we could not win without actual work, which we were not interested in) but that never worked because they never tried to actually work at the root of the problem: the warlords.
I’m also not too sanguine about thge internal structure of Europe. According to some very disturbing trends, a freakishly large German portion of youths now think that our own goverrnment fly the planes into the WTC. From some economic analysis of France and Germany, I have no idea how they intend to pay for their own future - the benefits people demand simply cannot be met with their future tax base, especially while they’re having such a hard time with their economy today. I was in Berlin earlier this year, and I remember how strikingly forlorn some of the older people seemed. The youths were energetic, yes, but I begin to wonder if their aggressive denunciation of “American Imperialism” was not a symptom of internal distress. And there’s still a perception that America is backwards and brutal and barbaric, and that we’ve somehow stolen what’s rightfully Europe’s place in the world.
I notice that you said “many” rather than “all”, but I’m European and I’d be interested if you could find anything condescending or mocking I’ve written about America on the SDMB. Without naming names, there do seem to be some people who come to every conversation on the board looking for a fight, but there’s never a bad time to clean up your act. Why not start now?
smiling bandit: What was it about UselessGit’s post that you took to be your cue to give a generalised hatchet job on an entire continent?
Wouldn’t a new thread in GD be a better place to air your grievances rather than hijacking this one?
Anybody wanna sing God Bless America?
No?
Ok.
:shuffles off:
Someone posted once a link to a document from an international body (sorry, but I don’t have the link anymore) and I checked it. And indeed, private aid to foreign countries by capita in the US exceeded by far the same in european countries. However, it didn’t compensate, by a long shot, the very low amount of US public foreign aid, since actually, even in the US, the private aid to foreign countries wasn’t very significant when compared to the public aid.
Leaving aside smiling bandit’s social analysis (which really belongs in GD and is way off topic here anyway)…
No, the boards haven’t always been like this. It’s my impression that this trend has popped up since Bush started beating the drum for going into Iraq. Lots of heated words were exchanged during the buildup to the war and during the “active phase,” and some people became overbearing in their sense of cultural superiority. These sorts of OPs, while entertaining and informative (at least to this American), always seem to dig up some of that residue.
everton, you have been a gentleman and a fine example, as always.