# Unitarian wanted to explain Christophanies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122 "2015-04-08T13:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/21 "2015-04-08T18:35:08Z")
> [@Dionysius](#): > > Alright. Can you flesh this out some more? That’s a statement of absolute. > > For you , sin is a severed tether to God, am I right? > > Again, the tone may seem confrontational, but it’s not meant to be so. What I mean is that evil can exist without reference to God, can exist in a godless universe; sin cannot. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/22 "2015-04-08T18:40:20Z")
> [@Dionysius](#): > > Unitarians, or my version of what I thought a Unitarian was, will say there is only one God and that Jesus was ‘begotten’ at some point in time. > Trinitarians will say that Jesus is fully God and also always existed alongside God. > Christophanies are, so a trinitarian would say, accounts of Jesus interacting on earth recorded in the Old Testament. There are many theories of [Christology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christology). > [@Dionysius](#): > > A UU, I’m sorry, but that could mean anything under the sun. Even trying to understand seems moot. If you’re curious, which you appear to be, find a UU church near you and attend a service. You’ll at least get some impression of what it’s all about, and if you have any questions, anyone there will be willing, and probably eager, to discuss them with you. ---
**Author:** ![Dionysius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee59a6/32.png) [@Dionysius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dionysius)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/23 "2015-04-08T18:44:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What I mean is that evil can exist without reference to God, can exist in a godless universe; sin cannot. Yeah, I get it now, the word ‘sin’ comes with it’s own context. Czar: Not that it matters, but I grew up on the LSV. One thing about Universalists, they’re the nicest folk. Grace and Peace, guys ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/24 "2015-04-08T18:48:06Z")
> [@Dionysius](#): > > Czar: Not that it matters, but I grew up on the LSV. I think by “which Bible” he meant not “which translation” but “which church.” Every denomination interprets it differently. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/25 "2015-04-09T02:51:00Z")
FWIW, I’m going to guess a French Calvinism, although I don’t know a thing about French denominations. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/26 "2015-04-09T04:08:55Z")
> [@andros](#): > > FWIW, I’m going to guess a French Calvinism, although I don’t know a thing about French denominations. Oh, please attribute not to **Dionysius,** without some further evidence, such abominable moral shame and disgrace as to call him a predestinarian Huguenot! That’s motherfucking **disgusting!** ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/27 "2015-04-09T07:20:59Z")
I grew up in a Trinitarian church, but it is my understanding that the Trinity appears nowhere in the Bible and that it was the result of an early church political compromise. The one anti-trinitarian that I’ve spoken with (a Jehovah’s witness) noted the earlier point. I had never heard of “Christophanies” before reading this thread. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I was being totally serious-“ **Czarcasm** ” is the name I use on this board. Would you mind telling us what religious sect you follow, and what version of the Bible you follow? I’ve heard you ask about versions of the Bible before. Within Christianity the differences between Catholic and most Protestant Bibles tend to be pretty small AFAIK. So why do you ask? Do certain small sects incorporate the Gospel of Mary or what? Or is it just a segue to pin-pointing their variant of Christianity? (MfM, agnostic, owns The New Oxford Annotated Bible and a few others.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/28 "2015-04-09T08:53:10Z")
First, we need to distinquish what has alternately been called classical, historic, Biblical, or Christian Unitarianism- and even within that, there are different views- ranging from Jesus being God’s first creation & His co-creator of everything else (Arianism & the JW view) to Jesus being the perfect Divine man who came into being at his birth to Jesus being a regular man chosen by God as His Son to represent Him & serve as an example to true believers (adoptionism). The first group would say these Christophanies were appearances of The Logos or The Angel of THE LORD & the closest created being to God. Others would say they were just angelic stand-ins or visions sent by God. ---
**Author:** ![Dionysius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee59a6/32.png) [@Dionysius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dionysius)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/29 "2015-04-09T12:01:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Oh, please attribute not to **Dionysius,** without some further evidence, such abominable moral shame and disgrace as to call him a predestinarian Huguenot! That’s motherfucking **disgusting!** Ha, ha. The further evidence is in! Predestinarian Huguenot is not too far from the mark. Technically, the LSV is Swiss, but Andros nailed it. Back in the day I would have been the guy getting killed by Cardinal Richelieu and his musketeers. I’ve already jettisoned the concept of “Hell” as everlasting conscious torment. The LSV doesn’t use the word ‘hell’ like the King James does. “La Géhenne” is a geographical location , whereas “Hell” is comes with it’s own set of flaming baggage. And now I’m looking into Unitarianism? May as well jettison the whole thing, become a UU and go hug a tree, man! Friar: Yeah, I realize even a Flying Speghetti Monsterite can be Unitarian, but I think the examples cited in my original question give it away. I guees my question is; The Angel of the Lord seems to have authority and power that is later said to be the Christ’s. Therefore my apparent Christophanies. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/30 "2015-04-09T13:26:51Z")
LSV ?? (I tried to google it but only got confusing hits.) Luis Scot Vargas? LSV Assets Management? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/31 "2015-04-09T13:32:11Z")
Basically, non-Trinitarian or Jesus=/=God views of seeming Christophanies can include- such encounters are indeed of God’s Firstborn, Created Son, who is Lord but not God, they are of angelic spokesbeings, they are visions sent by God & not visits by distinct entities. ---
**Author:** ![Dionysius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee59a6/32.png) [@Dionysius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dionysius)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/32 "2015-04-09T13:53:10Z")
LSV is my own tranliteration, I guess. I see Bible Gateway calls it the LSG. Anyways, I meant ‘La Bible Segond’. As in Louis Segond. I’ve heard a lot of ‘La Bible de Jérusalem’ (RC) in my youth, too. Friar: Good answer. ---
**Author:** ![Dionysius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee59a6/32.png) [@Dionysius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dionysius)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/33 "2015-04-09T14:07:54Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Basically, non-Trinitarian or Jesus=/=God views of seeming Christophanies can include- > such encounters are indeed of God’s Firstborn, Created Son, who is Lord but not God, > . I guess, in my mind Christophanies proved co-eternality and co-equality. But I guess, while Christophanies don’t shatter this view; they don’t automatically support it either. (the way I thought they did) If you want co-eternality, you still have to find it elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/34 "2015-04-09T14:43:23Z")
> [@Dionysius](#): > > I guess, in my mind Christophanies proved co-eternality and co-equality. But I guess, while Christophanies don’t shatter this view; they don’t automatically support it either. (the way I thought they did) If you want co-eternality, you still have to find it elsewhere. I don’t see how Christophanies lead to, let alone prove, co-equality. Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Dionysius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee59a6/32.png) [@Dionysius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dionysius)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/35 "2015-04-09T15:03:11Z")
Christophanies see Christ as judge in the OT. That gavel is said to be God’s. I’m not gonna bicker with you… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/36 "2015-04-09T15:06:40Z")
> [@Dionysius](#): > > Christophanies see Christ as judge in the OT. That gavel is said to be God’s. > I’m not gonna bicker with you… Wasn’t looking to bicker, but you brought it up, and I was wondering how one lead to the other. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/37 "2015-04-09T15:20:29Z")
> [@Dionysius](#): > > LSV is my own tranliteration, I guess. I see Bible Gateway calls it the LSG. Anyways, I meant ‘La Bible Segond’. As in Louis Segond. I’ve heard a lot of ‘La Bible de Jérusalem’ (RC) in my youth, too. > > Friar: Good answer. Gotcha. I was thinking of Martin’s _La Sainte Bible_–although that was also Genevan; my apologies for conflating French and Swiss Protestantism! (The _La Sainte_ was a revision of Jean Calvin’s _Bible de Genève_, which itself followed on the _Olivétan_, likely the first direct translation from Hebrew and Greek into French (although the NT was translated from _Textus Receptus_).) When I was studying some French, I read some passages from the _Segond_; the 1910 seemed a nice compromise between classical and modern language, and was suggested to me as sort of the French KJV. It’s certainly poetic enough. IIRC, Segond worked directly from Hebrew and Koine for his translation. But where the LSG stands in terms of theologial/philosophical/denominational discussion, I haven’t the slightest. . ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122/38 "2015-04-09T22:40:31Z")
If you want firm answers, send $175 to this address…wait, the mods won’t let me do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unitarian-wanted-to-explain-christophanies/717122.md?page=1)