# Unite the Right Racist Scum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471 "2017-08-12T22:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/241 "2017-08-13T12:31:38Z")
Yeah, Breitbart News is the flagship of the modern American conservative movement. Establishment Republicanism pandered to white racists since the Southern Strategy and have been taken over by it. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/242 "2017-08-13T12:34:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And… this does not describe communism? False equivalence? Stalin’s victims might disagree. You might want to ask some Chinese or Vietnamese immigrants as well. Or some Cubans who fled Castro. > > Are we going to ban speech in favor of anti-American ideologies, or aren’t we? White supremacy calls for the subjugation of minorities. Communism does not. You’re conflating it with despotic regimes. The U.S. murdered tens of thousand of civilians _this_ century. Should I talk to the Iraqis fleeing democracy? ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/243 "2017-08-13T12:38:32Z")
What in God’s name The Fuck? _ **"And no child should ever be afraid. To go outside. And play. Or be with their parents. And have a good time."** _ ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/244 "2017-08-13T12:39:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Okay, first let’s get some terms straight here. The Nazi Party, as in Hitler’s Nazi Party is dead. How would you describe The Traditionalist Worker’s Party, who were at Charlottesville [https://www.tradworker.org/](https://www.tradworker.org/) or Identity Evropa [https://www.identityevropa.com/#home](https://www.identityevropa.com/#home) or Vanguard America [https://bloodandsoil.org/](https://bloodandsoil.org/) (nice url, not-Nazi-guys!) or League of the South > **[League of The South](https://leagueofthesouth.com/)** Bit Nazi, eh? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/245 "2017-08-13T12:41:13Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > White supremacy calls for the subjugation of minorities. Communism does not. You’re conflating it with despotic regimes. The U.S. murdered tens of thousand of civilians _this_ century. Should I talk to the Iraqis fleeing democracy? The fact that the murder and enslavement is more equal makes it less immoral? ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/246 "2017-08-13T12:41:15Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Can anyone enlighten me about all those homemade shields with big X’s on them? If they were brought by the white supremacists, then it’s just evidence that they came actively looking for violence. (Or if they were brought by the counter-protestors, likewise.) Yes, they were brought by the white supremacists. I believe that the “X” represents a cross of some sort used by neo-Nazis and white supremacists for some time. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/247 "2017-08-13T12:42:40Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > How would you describe The Traditionalist Worker’s Party, who were at Charlottesville > > [https://www.tradworker.org/](https://www.tradworker.org/) > > or Identity Evropa > > [https://www.identityevropa.com/#home](https://www.identityevropa.com/#home) > > or Vanguard America > > [https://bloodandsoil.org/](https://bloodandsoil.org/) (nice url, not-Nazi-guys!) > > or League of the South > > [http://leagueofthesouth.com/](http://leagueofthesouth.com/) > > Bit Nazi, eh? Very Nazi, but not THE Nazi Party, anymore than American Communists are Stalin or Mao’s party. I dare say these “Nazi” parties have more in common with Nathan Bedford Forrest’s views than Hitler’s. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/248 "2017-08-13T12:43:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s only a hijack if we’re done talking about suppression of speech we don’t like. Not wanting to pick on you, but the lie pisses me off so much. Why do you keep doing it? This is not and has never been about speech we don’t like. Speech you don’t like is stuff like “Ghostbusters 2017 is a good movie.” We are discussing speech that promotes evil actions. We’re talking about people who support genocide and murder and violence. The more we allow them to continue supporting these things, the more likely we have this one guy who drives his car into people. If enough people advocate for something, eventually someone will be a “true believer” and actually do it. That’s the issue here. You can be a free speech absolutist all you want, but this lie that this is just about “suppression of speech we don’t like.” It’s about suppression of genuinely dangerous speech. As in, speech that leads to actual dangerous things happening. Yes, there’s a slippery slope if you apply it to everything, but no one is. The proposed limit is on advocating for certain illegal acts of violence. And this idea that limiting freedom of speech is inherently bad has to stop, too. There can and must be reasonable limits. We can discuss where they should be, but we cannot claim they shouldn’t exist, because that world (which we don’t live in) is a dystopia where you have false ads, people’s reputations destroyed, people killed by pranks, no perjury laws, no fraud laws, and so on. I personally think it sounds like a good compromise: you can claim that a race is inferior, and advocate for policies that hurt them, but you cannot advocate violence towards them. Seems a good place we could all agree on. If not as a permanent goal, at least a step towards it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/249 "2017-08-13T12:50:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Suppressing them in the absence of violence is. I know that the courts might see it differently, but ignoring them for a moment and just airing my own thoughts, I think it’s possible to protect controversial speech and yet being a little more selective in adjudicating the right venues and manner of expressing it. If somebody wants to advocate the merits of Nazism in an academic lecture forum or TV interview where his ideas can be rebutted and challenged directly, that’s one thing. But having large masses of people marching through public streets out in the open is just asking for trouble and I really think the courts (and frankly the ACLU, an organization I basically respect) have gone to ridiculous lengths to protect this sort of thing. I don’t expect everyone to agree with that interpretation, but that’s how I see it. I don’t want to criminalize or otherwise police bad thoughts just because we don’t like what’s in someone’s head. But there’s a difference between having bad thoughts and expressing them in a way that’s unlikely to hurt someone, and creating an environment in which emotions are certain to run high and the likelihood of physical confrontation is inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/250 "2017-08-13T12:51:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Very Nazi, but not THE Nazi Party, anymore than American Communists are Stalin or Mao’s party. > > I dare say these “Nazi” parties have more in common with Nathan Bedford Forrest’s views than Hitler’s. “Yeah, they’re Nazis, but not actual Hitler ones.” Well that’s OK then! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/251 "2017-08-13T12:52:36Z")
Nothing false in his equivalency. The Venezuela shows under other framings ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/252 "2017-08-13T12:54:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > We are discussing speech that promotes evil actions. We’re talking about people who support genocide and murder and violence. The more we allow them to continue supporting these things, the more likely we have this one guy who drives his car into people. If enough people advocate for something, eventually someone will be a “true believer” and actually do it. There’s a lot of speech that promotes evil actions. Think about what you’re saying. We can’t allow people to support things? That’s going right at people’s beliefs. People have the right to believe whatever they want, no matter how hateful. What they cannot do is commit hateful actions, or incite others to do so. That’s what we punish, not the beliefs or expression of those beliefs. > [@](#): > > That’s the issue here. You can be a free speech absolutist all you want, but this lie that this is just about “suppression of speech we don’t like.” It’s about suppression of genuinely dangerous speech. As in, speech that leads to actual dangerous things happening. There’s a lot of dangerous speech too. If it does actually lead to dangerous things happening, we can punish it. I’m not even approaching free speech absolutism here. Right now I’m just taking the side of our actual laws and Constitution. Speech itself is very hard to punish. Almost impossible unless actual harm is done, as in violence, damage to someone’s reputation, threats, etc. In the absence of real harm, it really is just “speech we don’t like”. > [@](#): > > Yes, there’s a slippery slope if you apply it to everything, but no one is. The proposed limit is on advocating for certain illegal acts of violence. That’s already illegal. I’m uncertain as to what acts of violence were being advocated at this rally though. I’m sure that many of those people WANT to commit genocide or drive certain people out, but I don’t recall much express advocacy of that. > [@](#): > > And this idea that limiting freedom of speech is inherently bad has to stop, too. There can and must be reasonable limits. We can discuss where they should be, but we cannot claim they shouldn’t exist, because that world (which we don’t live in) is a dystopia where you have false ads, people’s reputations destroyed, people killed by pranks, no perjury laws, no fraud laws, and so on. I think current law gets it about right. As a general rule, you can punish the harm speech causes, but you cannot punish speech where harm is only theoretical, or where the harm is strictly to people’s sensibilities. > [@](#): > > I personally think it sounds like a good compromise: you can claim that a race is inferior, and advocate for policies that hurt them, but you cannot advocate violence towards them. Seems a good place we could all agree on. If not as a permanent goal, at least a step towards it. It is something we can all agree on and I’d say that’s where it stops. And it applies to ALL calls for violence, whether or not a minority is the subject of the threat. This also happens to be current law. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/253 "2017-08-13T12:55:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The fact that the murder and enslavement is more equal makes it less immoral? Or the reality of the experience of the Tatar, the Tchechen, the Kalmyks… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/254 "2017-08-13T13:00:30Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I know that the courts might see it differently, but ignoring them for a moment and just airing my own thoughts, I think it’s possible to protect controversial speech and yet being a little more selective in adjudicating the right venues and manner of expressing it. If somebody wants to advocate the merits of Nazism in an academic lecture forum or TV interview where his ideas can be rebutted and challenged directly, that’s one thing. But having large masses of people marching through public streets out in the open is just asking for trouble and I really think the courts (and frankly the ACLU, an organization I basically respect) have gone to ridiculous lengths to protect this sort of thing. > > I don’t expect everyone to agree with that interpretation, but that’s how I see it. I don’t want to criminalize or otherwise police bad thoughts just because we don’t like what’s in someone’s head. But there’s a difference between having bad thoughts and expressing them in a way that’s unlikely to hurt someone, and creating an environment in which emotions are certain to run high and the likelihood of physical confrontation is inevitable. I think that’s a very persuasive argument. The one flaw I see is that you can’t really take into account what those who don’t like your speech will do. If they choose violence, that’s on them and I don’t want to get into endorsing a heckler’s veto. But yeah, if you’re talking about people who have a proven record of getting violent at protests, I can see denying them the right to assemble. But that is also going to be used against Occupy Wall Street and immigration protests, and anti-police protests. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/255 "2017-08-13T13:09:50Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > Start a sentence with a conjunction and then go full on retard? > > Tell us more about yer anti-racist lobbying. You do realize you’re telling me I was stupid to say we should do all we can legally to fight Nazis, right? How the goddamned _fuck_ do you have a problem with that? It’s one thing to be like **adaher** , who is apparently a free speech absolutist. But I’m pretty sure even he is for using legal means to stop Nazism. How fucked up do you have to be to think otherwise? I have to think you just had a brain fart. And apparently don’t know we’ve been s[tarting sentences with coordinating conjunctions](http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/can-i-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction) since the dawn of modern English. Shakespeare did it. The heightened English of the King James Bible did it. It’s like telling people not to end a sentence with a preposition, or other made up nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/256 "2017-08-13T13:19:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I do. Not for their sake. For mine. That’s an intriguing claim. So back it up. Give me the logic for how allowing these sorts of things is good for you, or, presumably, us. All you did in your reply was treat “freedom of speech” as sacrosanct. Apparently the current restrictions on freedom of speech in this country are okay, but no further. That doesn’t indicate why it is useful to me. Other countries do have hate speech laws. Why are they a bad thing? How do they hurt the people there? This is the unquestioning assumption I ask people to actually question. Not “is the basic concept of freedom of speech a good one?” Of course it is. But let’s take it off this vaunted shelf that cannot be touched and really discuss what should be done. Let’s get back to the foundations. Let’s stop using “freedom of speech” as the trump card that ends everything. All rights are limited. Where should the limits on the right to freedom of speech be? If the status quo, then why is it superior to what other countries do? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/257 "2017-08-13T13:23:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think that’s a very persuasive argument. The one flaw I see is that you can’t really take into account what those who don’t like your speech will do. If they choose violence, that’s on them and I don’t want to get into endorsing a heckler’s veto. > > But yeah, if you’re talking about people who have a proven record of getting violent at protests, I can see denying them the right to assemble. But that is also going to be used against Occupy Wall Street and immigration protests, and anti-police protests. I’m not very sympathetic to the Occupy movement for the reasons you alluded to, but there is still a difference between the ideas that they represent and those of the neo-confederates. In the case of Occupy, their ideas are not inherently violent. Arguing for a more equitable society, that rich people pay more taxes, that government regulate businesses better, and otherwise provide for common welfare is not ideology that threatens the fabric of stable society. Where Occupy goes wrong is in their tactics, and there are ways to deal with those tactics that people on both sides of the political spectrum can agree on. Few liberals I know of would disagree that blocking interstate traffic is inherently dangerous and that people who do this sort of thing ought to be tossed in the clink, even if we might sympathize with their message. The neo-confederate message is quite different. You cannot march with Nazi and Confederate flags and claim that you’re promoting peace. Promoting ideas of one group’s superiority over another, one group’s right to dominate others is not, as history has shown, an innocuous message. There is no peaceful ways to subjugate everyone else; that requires violence to carry into effect. Nazis didn’t subjugate Jews with peace. It wasn’t peace that allowed Whites to enslave Black Americans. It was violence. Any message that advocates such a regime is inherently violent speech. People need to cut the bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/258 "2017-08-13T13:25:23Z")
It’s superior because it allows more range of discussion. Speech actually does involve slippery slopes. Britain is arresting people for Twitter comments. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/259 "2017-08-13T13:27:08Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > How are “guns” relevant? No one got shot. Yes, the Nazis came prepared to fight. And many of the “antifa” assholes came with bats, chemicals to throw and prepared to fight. Maybe they “wanted violence” as well? Ah. So antifas are assholes but Nazis are not? Glad you clarified your position. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471/260 "2017-08-13T13:31:27Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I pray to the god I don’t believe in that my 91 year old Holocaust survivor mom didn’t see any images of people carrying guns and torches wearing Nazi symbols marching in her country. She lived through it once and still has nightmares and cries for her mother and sister, killed in front of her. Now, near the end of her life, for fucks sake let her have some peace. I join in your atheistic prayer. But to frame it in **octopusian** terms, it’s no surprise that things are escalating. Jews objecting to being exterminated by Nazis was bound to lead to something like this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-racist-scum/793471.md?page=14)