# "Unite the Right" white nationalist march: Ugliness on full display. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 12, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444 "2017-08-12T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/421 "2017-08-13T23:28:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Yep. And it has absolutely nothing to do with right or left. It’s just stupidity on display. It has a lot to do with “right”. Like, really, everything. Right wing. You see this, don’t you? It is plainly obvious to any impartial, or even a partial observer. The right wing in America, it’s a damn shame 50 years ago let alone today. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/422 "2017-08-13T23:29:31Z")
I wondering if there will be a GOP contingent of counter-protesters at the next rally. Or better yet, Trump supporters waving banners like “NOT IN MY NAME” or “REAL TRUMP SUPPORTERS HATE RACISM.” When I start seeing stuff like that, that’s when I’ll stop lumping all Trump supporters in with the white nationalists. The more apologia and defensiveness I hear from them, the more they convince me they are modern-day versions of the brownshirts. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/423 "2017-08-13T23:43:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, black supremacist killers are as bad as white supremacist killers, but I still think it’s bullshit to say (pretend, really) that there’s any significant group on the left today that’s anywhere near as bad (and as significant) as white supremacists and neo-nazis. A while ago, I asked **John Mace** this question: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m curious what you perceive the threat to the nation from white nationalists to be? You jumped in with this reply: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Assuming you’re not joking: White supremacists have terrorized thousands or more living Americans (and millions more no longer alive). No group or ideology has harmed more Americans, or harmed America more, than white supremacism. (BTW, that’s not in any way / shape / form a complaint about you jumping in, I rather like hearing your thoughts on subjects) My overall sense is that white supremacists / neo-nazis are a tiny fringe movement of extremists that have no real political power, don’t command any real influence (except for perhaps the hysteria their rallies tend to inspire on the Left and in the media) and are generally not worth the undue amount of attention they receive. I gather from the first post I quoted above, and your earlier post in response to my question to **John Mace** , that you do see them as significant / a power to be reckoned with / influential. Could you help me understand why that is? Is there some political goal that you fear they are on the cusp of achieving? Are you worried there’s some massive terrorist plot brewing amongst them that’s going to result in thousands of deaths? Are you worried they’re going to overthrow our Constitutional government? Is it just based off the political power they held decades ago? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/424 "2017-08-13T23:44:18Z")
If simply asserting that Muslims aren’t condemning Islamic based terrorism thus justifying lumping them all together is good enough for conservatives, so should assertions about Trump and Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/425 "2017-08-13T23:47:56Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > If simply asserting that Muslims aren’t condemning Islamic based terrorism thus justifying lumping them all together is good enough for conservatives, so should assertions about Trump and Nazis. Did you think it was a sufficient basis when conservatives did it? If so, then at least you’d be consistent if you condemned all Trump supporters for inadequately-condemning Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/426 "2017-08-13T23:57:19Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Although it occurred to me **Sailboat** ’s wife might know this woman. And let’s not forget there are five people in critical condition. I hope everything turns out okay. And, of course, the deceased was the most important person in the world to at least one other person. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/427 "2017-08-14T00:05:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My overall sense is that white supremacists / neo-nazis are a tiny fringe movement of extremists that have no real political power, don’t command any real influence (except for perhaps the hysteria their rallies tend to inspire on the Left and in the media) and are generally not worth the undue amount of attention they receive. I gather from the first post I quoted above, and your earlier post in response to my question to **John Mace** , that you do see them as significant / a power to be reckoned with / influential. Could you help me understand why that is? Is there some political goal that you fear they are on the cusp of achieving? Beyond infiltrating the highest levels of government and gaining direct access to, tacit approval from, and quite possibly influence over the President of the United States? Gotta give you that one, **Hurc** ; it’s hard to imagine what greater political goal white supremacists could achieve. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/428 "2017-08-14T00:05:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Explain how that is moral relativism? And please explain how the crimes of Hitler are uniquely bad when compared with Stalin, Mao, etc. I bet you can’t other than more misdirection, more goal post shifting, and more ad hominems. …the fuck, dude? My moral relativism comment was in response to your Portland, Seattle and Berkley post. I fucking quoted it for clarity, FFS. You show me when Stalin and Mao were on the west coast and then I’ll have a reason to respond to you further. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/429 "2017-08-14T00:20:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > A while ago, I asked **John Mace** this question: > > You jumped in with this reply: > > (BTW, that’s not in any way / shape / form a complaint about you jumping in, I rather like hearing your thoughts on subjects) > > My overall sense is that white supremacists / neo-nazis are a tiny fringe movement of extremists that have no real political power, don’t command any real influence (except for perhaps the hysteria their rallies tend to inspire on the Left and in the media) and are generally not worth the undue amount of attention they receive. I gather from the first post I quoted above, and your earlier post in response to my question to **John Mace** , that you do see them as significant / a power to be reckoned with / influential. Could you help me understand why that is? Is there some political goal that you fear they are on the cusp of achieving? Are you worried there’s some massive terrorist plot brewing amongst them that’s going to result in thousands of deaths? Are you worried they’re going to overthrow our Constitutional government? Is it just based off the political power they held decades ago? Something else? My sense is that white supremacists and neo-nazis have been mostly dormant for decades because they saw culture and society against them. I don’t think there are a great majority of such assholes out there – rather a significant minority. I don’t know exactly how many, but I think a reasonable estimate at the “floor” of how many Americans hold white supremacist views is around 3% – that’s the percentage of Louisiana voters that David Duke got last year (and if extrapolating to the whole country, is more than 10 million people). I suspect it’s a bit higher, plus a significant additional portion with “lean-racist” views (like, say, black men should stay away from their daughters, and they would rather send their kids to a private all-white school than a diverse public school) that don’t identify as racist or white supremacist but nonetheless have some similar goals. I think they want a roll back of the Civil Rights Act – and with a friendly SCOTUS, they could get it. This would allow sundown towns to be legal again – white supremacists could form all-white enclaves, with businesses never serving black (or brown or gay etc.) people. I don’t think there would be thousands of such towns, but I think some would form. I think they want cops to be as brutal against black people as they were 50 and 75 years ago. A friendly justice department could aid this, and stop pursuing cases against departments and individual cops who violate civil rights. I think they want juries and prosecutors to be extra-friendly against white people who kill black people. I think they want to bomb black churches and kill interracial couples and generally do terrible and harmful things. I don’t think they’re powerful enough to destroy America, but I think they might be dangerous enough to cause suffering to tens or hundreds of thousands or more, and set back progress in equal rights and equal opportunity for decades, and set back the possibility of black Americans and other minority Americans seeing the country as a truly welcoming place in which they’re actually fully equal citizens for even more decades. White supremacists were in charge of America for most of our history, and hurt America and Americans more than any other group – would it really be terribly shocking if a small but significant number remained and wanted to continue a truly terrible history of oppression and brutality, even on a smaller scale? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/430 "2017-08-14T00:22:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Here are some of my early posts in this thread: > > If you can’t see how that last one is just another in a series of attempts to find factually-correct information then you’re not nearly as astute an observer as I thought you were. > > What specifically have I posted that you felt was ‘giv[ing] self-described nazis the benefit of the doubt’ or ‘defend[ing] the indefensible so reflexively and persistently’? It may not be obvious to you, but your line of inquiry tends to run along the following predictable pattern: NEWS: Police report a woman was forcibly dragged into the alley behind the bar and raped. H-D: What was she wearing? Was she drunk? Where there witnesses? It’s fortunate there are pics of the events in Charlottesville, or you’d be arguing it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/431 "2017-08-14T00:24:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yeah, in hindsight it hasn’t been worth the hassle. You’re claiming that you’re involvement was simply to fact check. Yet, what’s clear is that you’re not going out of your way to disparage them. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I do not like Nazis, or genocide, or chants for murder of people, or assholes who run people over who are exercising their First Amendment rights. That being said, Larry made a pretty specific claim, that people were ‘chanting for the murder of Jews and non-whites’. I hadn’t heard that anywhere else and wanted to know if it was true. (snip) So, this is something you “don’t like” which is simply a throwaway comment to get on to your main point: a pedantic argument which many people has shown is morally questionable. However – unsurprisingly – when it involves black people protesting, then the condemnation is clear and spontaneous: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure he does. “[What do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8)” It’s not a very big movement, and it’s **despicable** , but he wasn’t the only one in the country to espouse such an awful ideology. My bolding. Of course it’s despicable, and while you don’t seem eager to denounce them, Nazis white supremacists and other alt-right wing Trump supporters are also despicable. Had your argument simply been pedantic, I think it would have been different. I have no idea what’s your motivation. If it’s support for the movement or Trump or whatever. However, it’s clear that you view it differently than you do others which you don’t feel bad about calling out. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/432 "2017-08-14T01:12:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > …the fuck, dude? > > My moral relativism comment was in response to your Portland, Seattle and Berkley post. I fucking quoted it for clarity, FFS. > > You show me when Stalin and Mao were on the west coast and then I’ll have a reason to respond to you further. What? It should be obvious that Hitler was a greater evil than the nuts on the left coast. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/433 "2017-08-14T01:17:02Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The KKK/Nazi apologists in these threads are pretty fucking lazy, or playing dumb, like **HurricaneDickhead**. In a few minutes looking around pics from Charlottesville, I saw several swastika tattoos and multiple nazi salutes. Like their piece of shit leader in the White House, their equivocating, weaselly language says it all. This is the second time this has happened in this thread. I (personally) am going to give it a pass once more… … **but I strongly suggest** people **double check** from here on what topic they are in, because if it happens again in here, I will be giving a warning if I’m the first to see it (and my guess is, other mods will too) from here on. DO NOT insult others outside of the Pit. Realizing it later and going “oops” is not a way you can get away with it (hence this note). ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/434 "2017-08-14T01:26:25Z")
At this point, the thread should probably just be moved or closed. Other than the inadvertent Pit-style posts, most of the dialogue has moved well beyond MPSIMS-style reaction to breaking news. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/435 "2017-08-14T01:44:15Z")
The moral decay in this country just from the election of Trump is really striking. It’s especially striking that our resident conservatives are so loath to condemn Nazis. These guys are all over themselves to condemn BLM every time a couple of teenagers get into a slap fight at a BLM event, but when actual armed Nazis go on a murder spree, it’s all “hey, maybe these were the good Nazis”, and “Nazis marching in a right wing event in explicit support of Trump wasn’t really a political event”. Guys, it’s OK to condemn Nazis, even if they’re on your side. In fact I should start a thread: “Dear Trump supporters, it’s OK to condemn Nazis.” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/436 "2017-08-14T01:54:34Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > The moral decay in this country just from the election of Trump is really striking. It’s especially striking that our resident conservatives are so loath to condemn Nazis. These guys are all over themselves to condemn BLM every time a couple of teenagers get into a slap fight at a BLM event, but when actual armed Nazis go on a murder spree, it’s all “hey, maybe these were the good Nazis”, and “Nazis marching in a right wing event in explicit support of Trump wasn’t really a political event”. > > Guys, it’s OK to condemn Nazis, even if they’re on your side. In fact I should start a thread: “Dear Trump supporters, it’s OK to condemn Nazis.” So who is supporting Nazism in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/437 "2017-08-14T02:09:35Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > You’re claiming that you’re involvement was simply to fact check. Yet, what’s clear is that you’re not going out of your way to disparage them. > So, this is something you “don’t like” which is simply a throwaway comment to get on to your main point: a pedantic argument which many people has shown is morally questionable. > > However – unsurprisingly – when it involves black people protesting, then the condemnation is clear and spontaneous:My bolding. > > Of course it’s despicable, and while you don’t seem eager to denounce them, Nazis white supremacists and other alt-right wing Trump supporters are also despicable. Had your argument simply been pedantic, I think it would have been different. > > I have no idea what’s your motivation. If it’s support for the movement or Trump or whatever. However, it’s clear that you view it differently than you do others which you don’t feel bad about calling out. I’m on my phone right now, so It’s a PITA to cite or quote additional posts, but I’m fairly confident that one of my early posts used that exact same word - “despicable” - in reference to the Nazis. I’ve also sprinkled various condemnations throughout the thread. I don’t know how much more out of my way to disparage them I need to go, but I guess I get bored easily with ‘you’re not condemning them _enough_’ style of arguments. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/438 "2017-08-14T02:11:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > … It’s fortunate there are pics of the events in Charlottesville, or you’d be arguing it didn’t happen. This is pure, undiluted bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/439 "2017-08-14T02:28:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > The moral decay in this country just from the election of Trump is really striking. It’s especially striking that our resident conservatives are so loath to condemn Nazis. These guys are all over themselves to condemn BLM every time a couple of teenagers get into a slap fight at a BLM event, but when actual armed Nazis go on a murder spree, it’s all “hey, maybe these were the good Nazis”, and “Nazis marching in a right wing event in explicit support of Trump wasn’t really a political event”. > > Guys, it’s OK to condemn Nazis, even if they’re on your side. In fact I should start a thread: “Dear Trump supporters, it’s OK to condemn Nazis.” I’m not a trump supporter, but I think it’s _especially_ important for conservatives, reactionaries, people sympathetic to ethnic nationalism and immigration skeptics to condemn the Nazis, the Traditionalist Worker’s Party, Richard Spence, the Identity Europa, neo-confederates, and all the other people who helped enact this rally, because these people are in a sense _on their side_ (in the same sense that Mao was ‘on the side’ of more moderate communists, as much as they might despise him), and it’s especially necessary for all people to be clear about what the moral limits of their ideology are, how they know when a hard moral line has been crossed, and what they refuse to accept. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/440 "2017-08-14T02:46:55Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’m not a trump supporter, but I think it’s _especially_ important for conservatives, reactionaries, people sympathetic to ethnic nationalism and immigration skeptics to condemn the Nazis, the Traditionalist Worker’s Party, Richard Spence, the Identity Europa, neo-confederates, and all the other people who helped enact this rally, because these people are in a sense _on their side_ (in the same sense that Mao was ‘on the side’ of more moderate communists, as much as they might despise him), and it’s especially necessary for all people to be clear about what the moral limits of their ideology are, how they know when a hard moral line has been crossed, and what they refuse to accept. As one of the board’s more conservative posters, I’ll gladly mention that I condemn the scum who came to Charlottesville waving Confederate flags and talking up the KKK; I’ll gladly add that I _protested_ them, live and in person, in Charlottesville. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444.md?page=23)