# "Unite the Right" white nationalist march: Ugliness on full display. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 12, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444 "2017-08-12T15:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/501 "2017-08-14T19:01:03Z")
After criticisms of Trump for not condemning the racists, he finally got around to it today, but at the end of a speech which started by talking about trade, tax cuts, the stock market, and unemployment. Only eventually did he finally condemn racism, the KKK, and the Nazis. > **[Two days later, Trump tries to get Charlottesville right](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/two-days-later-trump-tries-get-charlottesville-right-msna1012406)** > > What was wrong with Trump's remarks? Nothing. What's hard to brush aside, however, is what it took to get him to that podium. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/502 "2017-08-14T19:16:58Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Alex Jones: The people dressed like Nazis and protesting in Charlottesville were really Jewish actors. > [http://www.salon.com/2017/08/14/alex-jones-charlottesville-protesters-are-really-just-jewish-actors/](http://www.salon.com/2017/08/14/alex-jones-charlottesville-protesters-are-really-just-jewish-actors/) Wouldn’t it be tragic if Alex Jones were beaten to death by neo-Nazis for calling them Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/503 "2017-08-14T19:28:05Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > After criticisms of Trump for not condemning the racists, he finally got around to it today, but at the end of a speech which started by talking about trade, tax cuts, the stock market, and unemployment. Only eventually did he finally condemn racism, the KKK, and the Nazis. > [Two days later, Trump tries to get Charlottesville right](http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/two-days-later-trump-tries-get-charlottesville-right?cid=sm_fb_maddow) He carried it off with all the aplomb of a bratty six-year-old whose parents made him apologize for misbehavior he doesn’t regret one bit. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/504 "2017-08-14T19:28:47Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Your other points are reasonable. This one is not. **Merneith** and others who have made the counter-argument have the right of it - dress like a Nazi or wield Nazi paraphernalia and I’m going to assume you think like a generic Nazi. > > No one should be all that interested _in the moment_ just what are the fine nuances of a Nazi’s Nazism. If you openly associate yourself with the genocidal, I’m just going to assume you’re genocidal and call it a day. Frankly that IS the logical position to take. Yes. Totally makes sense that people will assume that a Nazi is in favor of the worst atrocities that Nazis committed in WWII. And if you dress up like a Nazi you better be aware that people are going to think those things about you. But it doesn’t mean that any particular modern Nazi desires Genocide . That just doesn’t follow (although if I had to bet, I would bet he does). As **Hurricane Ditka** said… he has learned his lesson about how far you can go splitting pedantic hairs on the SDMB. And that is all this is at this point so it’s counter-productive to discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/505 "2017-08-14T19:40:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m a gun guy. I saw an obvious (and common) error and wanted to correct it. I don’t think I’d describe the correction as “necessary”, but I don’t think really anything that ever gets posted here, by me or anyone else, is “necessary”. > > It’s very likely that the correction will accomplish nothing. Some Dopers will probably continue to make the same basic errors about firearm terminology. I suspect many of them don’t even understand the important differences in functionality that automatic and semi-automatic describe, and so they probably see the correction as more of a meaningless quibble than I do. > > I don’t see it as all that different from a car guy correcting inaccurate reports about the model of the car, and while those corrections aren’t, perhaps, strictly “necessary”, I wouldn’t take issue with them if it was helping me come to a more accurate understanding. > > As for the chanting post that seems to have started all my troubles here: I tried to explain my reasoning to **Spice Weasel** already: > > If that’s not clear enough, let me know and I’ll try to clarify further. I will accept your explanation on face value with respect to the gun issue. I have more trouble with the pedantics regarding neo-nazis and whether or not they were literally or figuratively chanting threats against jews and people of colour. Here’s why - I’m jewish and not only were many family members of my grandparents’ generation, including one grandparent, killed by Nazis, I personally experienced anti semitism growing up. So I don’t need to wait to literally hear anti-semitic chants when I see neo-nazis gathered in large numbers, per Charlottesville. I can conclude with near absolute certainty they’re not gathered to offer a public retraction of their philosophy. I’ve yet to be proven wrong. So you say you’re not a neo-nazi apologist and that may be as you say. But then why raise that specific question at all? Are chanting neo-nazis demonstrably different from non-chanting neo-nazis? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/506 "2017-08-14T19:40:31Z")
Massachusetts cop under investigation by his department for laughing at the carnage in Charlottesville on social media. > **['Love this': Police officer mocked Charlottesville car attack that left one dead](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article167077507.html)** > > A Massachusetts police department opened an internal investigation after reports that one of its officers made a Facebook comment mocking the car attack that happened during the unrest between white nationalists and counter protesters in... ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/507 "2017-08-14T19:43:41Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Wouldn’t it be tragic if Alex Jones were beaten to death by neo-Nazis for calling them Jews? Thanks for that cheery thought. 🙂 The only one in this thread thus far. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/508 "2017-08-14T19:51:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s very likely that the correction will accomplish nothing. Some Dopers will probably continue to make the same basic errors about firearm terminology. I suspect many of them don’t even understand the important differences in functionality that automatic and semi-automatic describe, and so they probably see the correction as more of a meaningless quibble than I do. > > I don’t see it as all that different from a car guy correcting inaccurate reports about the model of the car, and while those corrections aren’t, perhaps, strictly “necessary”, I wouldn’t take issue with them if it was helping me come to a more accurate understanding. If someone said “That Dodge Charger just hit that group of people!” and someone else said “Don’t you mean Dodge CHALLENGER?” I would think they are kinda not super focused on what’s important. And that would tend to make me wonder what their deal is. If on the other hand, someone said “That Dodge Charger just hit that group of people!” and someone else said “Oh my god. I just saw that. It was a Dodge Challenger and it hit that crowd!” I would be perfectly fine with it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/509 "2017-08-14T19:51:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I thought it was obvious that my first use of “despicable” was directed at the Nazis. If that wasn’t clear then, I thought I further clarified it later with “… one of my early posts used that exact same word - “despicable” - in reference to the Nazis.” Did you miss that? Not understand it? Your first use of the word despicable was not in fact in reference to the Nazis. It was in reference to “various people,” which language I noted you snipped from your quote. Whoops. You then later claimed that you thought, but were unsure, that you used the word despicable in reference to Nazis in an earlier post. Let me clear that up for you–you did not. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/510 "2017-08-14T19:52:59Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > But it doesn’t mean that any particular modern Nazi desires Genocide . That just doesn’t follow (although if I had to bet, I would bet he does). Bullshit. If they voluntarily embrace the Nazi label, swanning around town in their modern Nazi uniforms, Sieg Heiling each other and chanting “Blood & Soil” - they don’t get to come whining around, all, “Oh - no, we’re not _bad_ Nazis! We’re the good Nazis! How dare you associate us with old, _mean_ Nazis! That’s so unfair!” It’s bullshit. It’s straight up gaslighting to insist that we should give these young Nazis the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/511 "2017-08-14T19:56:04Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Bullshit. If they voluntarily embrace the Nazi label, swanning around town in their modern Nazi uniforms, Sieg Heiling each other and chanting “Blood & Soil” - they don’t get to come whining around, all, “Oh - no, we’re not _bad_ Nazis! We’re the good Nazis! How dare you associate us with old, _mean_ Nazis! That’s so unfair!” > > It’s bullshit. It’s straight up gaslighting to insist that we should give these young Nazis the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, there’s a point at which the responsibility falls entirely on the person displaying the symbol to rebut the presumption. Though I’ll admit that it’s not really rebuttable for me, barring something like a reenactment or an acting role. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/512 "2017-08-14T19:56:28Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Massachusetts cop under investigation by his department for laughing at the carnage in Charlottesville on social media. Which reminds me of a point I have been thinking about: it is alarming many many of these right-wing nut groups seem to have members in law enforcement or the military. Like the Oathkeepers, for example. Yeah, what this country really needs is a bunch of conspiracy-peddling militiamen who show up at right-wing rallies as a show of force with all their weapons, patches and nonsense… and then go back to their day jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/513 "2017-08-14T19:56:37Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Massachusetts cop under investigation by his department for laughing at the carnage in Charlottesville on social media. > [http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article167077507.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article167077507.html) > [@Cowardly Fuckstain and Springfield cop](#): > > Lariviere confirmed that he is a patrolman in a Facebook conversation with MassLive, and expressed remorse for what he described as “a stupid comment about people blocking streets.” > > “Never would I want someone to get murdered. I am not a racist and don’t believe in what any of those protesters are doing,” Lariviere told MassLive. “I’m a good man who made a stupid comment and would just like to be left alone.” Poor, poor, Conrad Lariviere. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/514 "2017-08-14T20:10:39Z")
Looping back to a point raised early in the thread, the murder did indeed spend about four months in the Army, and was indeed washed out quickly: [http://taskandpurpose.com/james-alex-fields-army-charlottesville/](http://taskandpurpose.com/james-alex-fields-army-charlottesville/) One thing that the article touches on, which also surprises me, is that of the 43 wrost mass killings in the U.S. since 1984, a third of them were committed by service members or former service members. I had never heard that before. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/515 "2017-08-14T20:33:14Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Your first use of the word despicable was not in fact in reference to the Nazis. Yes, it was. If you’re going to try to be pedantic, at least don’t suck at it. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > It was in reference to “various people,” which language I noted you snipped from your quote. Whoops. … I never used the word “various” in that post. Don’t falsely attribute statements to me that I did not make. Here is the original post, with the post by Larry that I was responding to, in their complete context and full form, at least as best as I can manage to reproduce them: > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > So we are all supposed to defend the rights of people chanting for the murder of Jews and non-whites. And we can’t criticize them on this board because reasons. This is all i gotta say about that. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvcn-hvVUas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvcn-hvVUas) > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > > > … people chanting for the murder of Jews and non-whites. … > > Cite? I have no doubt there are despicable people in the world, but I think I missed the part where a crowd in Virginia was “chanting for the murder of Jews and non-whites”. Did that actually happen yesterday? I believe that an even-remotely genuine attempt at understanding the post would recognize that “despicable people” in my post as a reference to the same “people chanting for the murder of Jews and non-whites” in Larry’s post, but neither he nor I explicitly specified them as “the Nazis”, so YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/516 "2017-08-14T20:35:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Looping back to a point raised early in the thread, the murder did indeed spend about four months in the Army, and was indeed washed out quickly: > > [http://taskandpurpose.com/james-alex-fields-army-charlottesville/](http://taskandpurpose.com/james-alex-fields-army-charlottesville/) > > One thing that the article touches on, which also surprises me, is that of the 43 wrost mass killings in the U.S. since 1984, a third of them were committed by service members or former service members. I had never heard that before. Yes, I saw that too. Your early information did indeed prove to be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/517 "2017-08-14T20:36:17Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Wouldn’t it be tragic if Alex Jones were beaten to death by neo-Nazis for calling them Jews? I would laugh until I cried. OK, OK - I can’t condone violence. But I can have an appreciation for when karma hits someone upside the head with a clue-by-four. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/518 "2017-08-14T20:45:29Z")
For, what it’s worth, after our conversation, I’m satisfied that HD is not a Nazi sympathizer. He’s just really pedantic. I still maintain that no skinhead waving the Nazi flag gets the benefit of a doubt for what that means. After some discussion in the Pit with octopus, it looks like part of the problem is that some were splitting hairs because they believed others were saying, “carrying the flag is endorsing genocide and therefore should be banned as an incitement to violence.” I never argued for banning Nazi flags and I’m not sure anyone else did, but it may explain the vociferous nature of those contesting the meaning of the flag. It bears reminding that carrying the Nazi flag has already been ruled as protected speech. Also, good news everyone! We are officially sanctioned to Godwinize this thread. [http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2017/08/inventor-godwin-s-law-says-it-s-fine-call-charlottesville-rioters-nazis](http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2017/08/inventor-godwin-s-law-says-it-s-fine-call-charlottesville-rioters-nazis) Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/519 "2017-08-14T20:51:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I believe that an even-remotely genuine attempt at understanding the post would recognize that “despicable people” in my post as a reference to the same “people chanting for the murder of Jews and non-whites” in Larry’s post, but neither he nor I explicitly specified them as “the Nazis”, so YMMV. That’s not how I read your post. I would paraphrase it as “if there were Nazis in Virginia chanting for the murder of Jews and non-whites, they would be despicable. But I didn’t see any people chanting that.” You say there are despicable people in the world, whether you think any of them were in Charlottesville isn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444/520 "2017-08-14T21:16:34Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Bullshit. If they voluntarily embrace the Nazi label, swanning around town in their modern Nazi uniforms, Sieg Heiling each other and chanting “Blood & Soil” - they don’t get to come whining around, all, “Oh - no, we’re not _bad_ Nazis! We’re the good Nazis! How dare you associate us with old, _mean_ Nazis! That’s so unfair!” > > It’s bullshit. It’s straight up gaslighting to insist that we should give these young Nazis the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think that **I Love Me, Vol. I** was “insist[ing] that we should give these young Nazis the benefit of the doubt”. I understood it as a general comment about how you perhaps might not want to _always_ assume _every_ person who ever says “Sieg Heil” actually wants genocide. To be specific, I’ve got no problem with everyone presuming the worst motives about the crowd in Charlottesville holding every abhorrent motivation you can imagine for the attire, actions, and chants. Taken as a whole, I think it’s pretty obvious their intentions were quite vile. But, to offer a different example, there was a young Asian man who gave a rather passionate speech one night during Shia LeBeouf’s failed “He Will Not Divide Us” exhibit about (IIRC) the damage the Left’s identity politics had caused. He concluded with the phrase “Sieg Heil motherf\*\*\*ers”. Is he a Nazi? Do you feel comfortable assuming that he was actually advocating for genocide based off that one ironic use of a Nazi slogan? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unite-the-right-white-nationalist-march-ugliness-on-full-display/793444.md?page=27)