# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/181 "2017-04-10T20:45:24Z")
Did anyone take a look at the flight involved? United 3411, Chicago, IL (ORD) to Louisville, KY (SDF). It’s a five hour and 22 minute drive. You know there were at least four people who weren’t connecting and had that as a final destination. Who at United wasn’t smart enough to stick some people in a Uber Black? Hell, they could have paid somebody $800 to get there a few hours late and had people lining up. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/182 "2017-04-10T20:46:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why not just keep upping the $ offer? Eventually someone will say yes, and paying a few grand for a big airline is nothing compared to the PR hit and lawsuits from physically dragging a passenger off the plane. It’s not unreasonable to assume that the people you end up choosing are adults who knew there was a chance of this going in and so act like adults when you tell them that today’s their unlucky day. If we have to start making decisions based on the assumption that we’re dealing with people with the emotional and intellectual maturity of children, we’re in for a bad time. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/183 "2017-04-10T20:47:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > A person is refusing to obey the lawful orders of flight crew and then law enforcement. How we reached that point is not really relevant to what ensues. The only rules that are under scrutiny at that stage are the training and rules that law enforcement follow to effect a forcible removal. The airline should be asked to justify its actions, as should law enforcement. The authority of either is not unlimited. “How we reached that point” may or may not be relevant. > [@Folly](#): > > As a side note, it is less than a 5 hour trip from Chicago to Louisville KY. I just put Louisville in to my Uber app and it came back with a price of $319. I’ve actually made that drive many times. It’s 5 hours _under ideal conditions_. That would mean never hitting traffic jams, good weather, minimal or no rest stops… It CAN be 5 hours, it is not always 5 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/184 "2017-04-10T20:48:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > To make it entirely fair there should be federal rules banning overbooking I, for one, would rather not pay more for air travel. It’s hard enough for me to visit my family as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/185 "2017-04-10T20:50:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So with the plane 100% full, no seats available, the airline boarded another passenger, then asked someone to vacate their seat for him? No, they boarded crew that was needed for a flight out of the flight in question’s destination. For whatever reason (perhaps mechanical reasons or weather), the original plan for getting that crew where they needed to be fell through, so the airline had to choose between inconveniencing four people versus cancelling the flight that the crew-in-transit was supposed to be on and inconveniencing dozens to a couple hundred people. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/186 "2017-04-10T20:51:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Unlawful?:dubious: Who said anything about 'unlawful"? Certainly the Airline can order you off their plane. But unless they follow their end of the contract- you _can_ sue. Man sues airline has 11,900,000 hits. Pretty fucking common. Man sues cat has 3,240,000 results. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/187 "2017-04-10T20:52:23Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > No, they boarded crew that was needed for a flight out of the flight in question’s destination. For whatever reason (perhaps mechanical reasons or weather), the original plan for getting that crew where they needed to be fell through, so the airline had to choose between inconveniencing four people versus cancelling the flight that the crew-in-transit was supposed to be on and inconveniencing dozens to a couple hundred people. Or flying that crew on a charter. Or offering more. or realizing there was a problem before allowing the passengers to board. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/188 "2017-04-10T20:53:12Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > 3765 unwilling bump victims. out of [95,000,000.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_largest_airlines) That’s just 0.004 percent. > > . It’s also a national news story that has gotten nearly 200 comments on this board in a few hours, that has happened ten times a day for decades without anybody taking notice of it. Ten times a day. For decades. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/189 "2017-04-10T20:54:39Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > It’s also a national news story that has gotten nearly 200 comments on this board in a few hours, that has happened ten times a day for decades without anybody taking notice of it. Ten times a day. For decades. Because they removed him BY FORCE not just denied boarding. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/190 "2017-04-10T20:55:23Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I detest so many aspects of air travel, and have difficulty seeing any defense for overbooking. It’s part of the operational efficiency that makes air travel affordable for those of us with modest incomes. Yes, sometimes it backfires–but those backfires happen so rarely, and their costs are so small, that on the whole it’s a net benefit. > [@](#): > > What is the explanation what THIS particular crew member was needed in Frankfort? They couldn’t find another employee anywhere who could get to that location in a reasonable time? Probably not. Airlines have incredibly complex crew management systems that are pretty damn good at optimizing aircrew flows. Including figuring out what is the best solution in unexpected situations, such as when the original plan to move a crew from Point A to Point B falls through due to weather or mechanical issues. > [@](#): > > My opinion is that United was solely responsible in creating this situation Then your opinion is almost certainly not rooted in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/191 "2017-04-10T20:56:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If airlines are overbooking flights, they 're being paid for flights not taken. Missed this bit of wildly-uninformed nonsense. But: no, they’re not. When they bump passengers, they’re almost always legally obligated to refund them the cost of their ticket PLUS extra, unless they’re able to get them to their destination within an hour of the originally scheduled time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/192 "2017-04-10T20:56:54Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Man sues cat has 3,240,000 results. Sure, so let’s hear from a lawyer if this guy can sue… oh wait: \*One thing is abundantly clear already though; this as-yet-unidentified traveler has a heck of a lawsuit. “It’s pretty outrageous,” said Jim Keindler an aviation lawyer with Kreindler & Kreindler in New York for 34 years… Kreindler has seen just about everything over the course of three and a half decades representing air travelers, so when I saw the video, I called to ask what he thought. “That’s a compelling suit,” he told me explaining, “For United to decide an employee’s presence is more important than a doctor seeing patients is pretty wild…But even if the passenger isn’t a doctor, Kreindler says the airline does not have the right to evict passengers without cause. “First of all its wrong, it’s their problem to get their people where they have to be to work, work from even if it means flying them on another carrier. They shouldn’t be forcibly removing people by lottery,” he said.”\* > **[United May Be Bracing For A Lawsuit](https://www.forbes.com/sites/christinenegroni/2017/04/10/united-may-be-bracing-for-a-lawsuit/#50d3d36d716c)** > > The PR nightmare may get even worse for the airline that recently received criticism over its clothing policy. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/193 "2017-04-10T20:58:10Z")
[This LA Times columnist doesn’t think highly of United’s practices.](http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-united-video-20170410-story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/194 "2017-04-10T21:00:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Unlawful?:dubious: Who said anything about 'unlawful"? Certainly the Airline can order you off their plane. But unless they follow their end of the contract- you _can_ sue. Man sues airline has 11,900,000 hits. Pretty fucking common.\* As three separate words you get a total of over 11,000,000 hits, which is a spectacular amount…if you don’t know how to look things up, because if you look up the phrase “man sues airline” it drops just slightly to 7220 hits. Which still doesn’t mean jack shit unless you can find a single case that involving a person being deplaned under the boarding rules. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/195 "2017-04-10T21:00:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, so let’s hear from a lawyer if this guy can sue… > > oh wait: > \*One thing is abundantly clear already though; this as-yet-unidentified traveler has a heck of a lawsuit. > > “It’s pretty outrageous,” said Jim Keindler an aviation lawyer with Kreindler & Kreindler in New York for 34 years… Kreindler has seen just about everything over the course of three and a half decades representing air travelers, so when I saw the video, I called to ask what he thought. “That’s a compelling suit,” he told me explaining, “For United to decide an employee’s presence is more important than a doctor seeing patients is pretty wild…But even if the passenger isn’t a doctor, Kreindler says the airline does not have the right to evict passengers without cause. “First of all its wrong, it’s their problem to get their people where they have to be to work, work from even if it means flying them on another carrier. They shouldn’t be forcibly removing people by lottery,” he said.”\* > > [United May Be Bracing For A Lawsuit](https://www.forbes.com/sites/christinenegroni/2017/04/10/united-may-be-bracing-for-a-lawsuit/#50d3d36d716c) As has been gone over [in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=187259), you can sue pretty much anyone for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/196 "2017-04-10T21:01:48Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > A man, we’ll call him Gary, buys groceries at Piggly Wiggly. As Gary is walking to his car, the store manager gets a call from his boss that the Piggly Wiggly three towns over needs some items to fill out their shelves. Manager runs out and asks customers in the parking lot to return their food so the other store can put it on their shelves. No one bites. Manager offers some Piggly Wiggly gift cards. No one bites. Manager grabs Gary’s bags, Gary fights back with kicks and swats. Manager calls the police, who proceed to beat the shit out of Gary for refusing to comply with the manager and for fighting back, and then they give his food back to the manager. That is, of course, nowhere near being a comparable situation. Once you’ve bought food at the store, that food is yours, inalienably so. You are not the owner of a seat on a plane. The airline is. They’re selling you permission to sit in it for a certain period of time, but it’s permission they’re entitled to revoke at any point so long as they refund what you paid for it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/197 "2017-04-10T21:01:50Z")
Somewhere a Pepsi executive is breathing a sigh of relief. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/198 "2017-04-10T21:02:28Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > As has been gone over [in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=187259), you can sue pretty much anyone for anything. Except there is a lawyer who is a expert in that field saying: "“That’s a \*compelling \*suit.” ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/199 "2017-04-10T21:04:21Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > Deliberately overbooking is morally, and ought to be legally, treated as fraud. Except not, because you know full well going in that that’s a possibility. It’s not “fraud” if they literally tell you up front exactly what they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/200 "2017-04-10T21:04:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, so let’s hear from a lawyer if this guy can sue… > > oh wait: > \*One thing is abundantly clear already though; this as-yet-unidentified traveler has a heck of a lawsuit. > > “It’s pretty outrageous,” said Jim Keindler an aviation lawyer with Kreindler & Kreindler in New York for 34 years… Kreindler has seen just about everything over the course of three and a half decades representing air travelers, so when I saw the video, I called to ask what he thought. “That’s a compelling suit,” he told me explaining, “For United to decide an employee’s presence is more important than a doctor seeing patients is pretty wild…But even if the passenger isn’t a doctor, Kreindler says the airline does not have the right to evict passengers without cause. “First of all its wrong, it’s their problem to get their people where they have to be to work, work from even if it means flying them on another carrier. They shouldn’t be forcibly removing people by lottery,” he said.”\* > > [United May Be Bracing For A Lawsuit](https://www.forbes.com/sites/christinenegroni/2017/04/10/united-may-be-bracing-for-a-lawsuit/#50d3d36d716c) Will you please leave those goalposts where they are? There isn’t anything in that about using boarding rules to deplane passengers, which is what you were talking about previously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=11)