# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/301 "2017-04-11T02:47:20Z")
I saw some footage that wasn’t fuzzied out. He was of Asian descent, most likely Japanese, and didn’t appear to be fluent in English. He’s also 69 years old, which makes me wonder if there may have been some dementia or another medical condition. And is he really a doctor, and if so, what kind? He could have a diploma-mill Ph.D. for all I know. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/302 "2017-04-11T02:47:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, and it isn’t my burden to do so. I have not researched the law, and I don’t take at face value any of the assertions about the law in this thread. My position is that in this situation _I consider_ it the airline’s responsibility and that _I want_ the law to be such that the airline to be held responsible. Ah I guess I have taken you posting your posts “as a lawyer” to mean you have some legal backing to your statements. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/303 "2017-04-11T02:48:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I wonder if there are insurance concerns. What if he Uber car gets in an accident and the passengers are injured? Note: I’m not saying I know this to be a problem, I’m just wondering if it’s more complicated than “they should’ve hired an Uber car to take them to KY”. You think a business as gigantic as United doesn’t have insurance that covers transporting its employees to their reporting location? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/304 "2017-04-11T02:50:41Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > In Japan, once the ticket is issued, that seat is yours. No one else gets your seat. Of course, if you can’t make the flight, then you pay for another one. And that’s fine but here, if you can’t make the flight, the airlines will usually get you on another flight, either for free or for a nominal fee. I prefer that to what you describe. Happened to me enough times. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/305 "2017-04-11T02:51:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > A guy got bloodied by the cops. That should not happen in this situation. Period. No matter what the airline wants. If that’s “emotional waffle,” then so be it. Why shouldn’t it happen if a guy resists the cops? What’s your alternate reality for resisting arrest that doesn’t involve use of force? ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/306 "2017-04-11T02:51:26Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > The ‘kink’ is in your logic. No one, not Czarcasm, Beren, Yours Truly or any others you want to put in that category have defended the level of force used on the passenger. You might want to walk that back just a wee bit… > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > What lawsuit? The air marshals \ used force, and they used only the amount of force needed to remove a passenger who was resisting removal. He was being removed for refusing to comply with a lawful direct order from a flight crew member. It all looks legit to me > [@Ravenman](#): > > 1. Dude had zero right to fail to comply with completely valid and legal requests to leave the plane. > 2. I think the police would win any lawsuit against them if the passenger decided to sue. > [@Leaffan](#): > > United was following their standard set of rules, in fact it may be standard for all airlines. \ > “These are the rules, and you will follow them” seems like a very pragmatic way of running an airline business. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > They tried to bribe him with much more then they were required, they tried to reason with him, they selected his name randomly so he couldn’t say he was being picked on, _then_ after all that, after it was explained to him that he had no legal right to stay on the plane they were forced to resort to the amount of force necessary to remove him. That took me 5 minutes to quote, I believe there are more, but I’m not going to devote my night to it. > [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > If you want to say United handled it badly, that unacceptable force was used, go for it. That’s exactly what I’ve been saying all along (and also that the bad publicity from this will hurt them). > [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > But at least acknowledge that United had every legal right to take the steps that they did, even if they did it about as badly as possible. Since you insist, I acknowledge it. Huzzah. I did not say otherwise before. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/307 "2017-04-11T02:53:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You think a business as gigantic as United doesn’t have insurance that covers transporting its employees to their reporting location? No. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/308 "2017-04-11T02:56:06Z")
Just to inject a couple of facts into the argument (it’s a pretty good one we’ve got going, ain’t it?), here are statements from United Airlines Contract of Carriage. In effect, when you agree to buy a ticket on United, you are agreeing to this Contract. I think most airlines have similar if not the exact same wording in their Contract of Carriage. From Rule 5, paragraph G: > [@](#): > > All of UA’s flights are subject to overbooking which could result in UA’s inability to provide previously confirmed reserved space for a given flight or for the class of service reserved. In that event, UA’s obligation to the Passenger is governed by Rule 25. From Rule 25, paragraph A2: > [@](#): > > Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority: If you want to read it yourselves: [https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25](https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25) ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/309 "2017-04-11T02:56:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Your house is not a business open to the public. It is not a common carrier. No one has paid to be there. The only relevant difference is that my choice to kick someone else cannot be based on membership in a protected class, and I have to reimburse the person I remove. > [@](#): > > You say it’s trespassing only because you choose to define it as trespassing. There’s nothing in this situation compelling that conclusion. Except, you know, the very definition of trespassing. All the rest of your post is just incoherent babbling. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/310 "2017-04-11T03:00:14Z")
And frankly I don’t care if this doesn’t translate to any other kind of business. I don’t want an airline to be allowed to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/311 "2017-04-11T03:03:06Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > Just to inject a couple of facts into the argument (it’s a pretty good one we’ve got going, ain’t it?), here are statements from United Airlines Contract of Carriage. In effect, when you agree to buy a ticket on United, you are agreeing to this Contract. I think most airlines have similar if not the exact same wording in their Contract of Carriage. > From Rule 5, paragraph G: > From Rule 25, paragraph A2: > > If you want to read it yourselves: [https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25](https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25) Where does it say they have the right to remove a passenger who has already been allowed to board? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/312 "2017-04-11T03:03:26Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > The only relevant difference is that my choice to kick someone else cannot be based on membership in a protected class, and I have to reimburse the person I remove. I’m not sure what we are comparing or whether you are expressing an opinion, which is what I’m doing. > [@](#): > > Except, you know, the very definition of trespassing. The law has specialized definitions for lots of concepts. I don’t accept that we have to apply a definition of trespassing that covers this situation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/313 "2017-04-11T03:04:20Z")
ShadowFacts, regarding your post #306. I am willing to concede that comments about the _appropriate_ amount of force to remove the gentleman is a matter of debate and that the comments you quote do seem to show a pattern, albeit I will let Czarcasm and Machine Elf speak for themselves. The whole argument boils down to the “Saxons”\* vs. the “Legals”, IMHO. I’m standing with the Legalists, obviously you differ. \*The Saxon reference is to a Kipling Poem, “Norman and Saxon”: > [@](#): > > When he stands like an ox in the furrow – with his sullen set eyes on your own, > And grumbles, ‘This isn’t fair dealing,’ my son, leave the Saxon alone. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/314 "2017-04-11T03:05:20Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > And that’s fine but here, if you can’t make the flight, the airlines will usually get you on another flight, either for free or for a nominal fee. > > I prefer that to what you describe. Happened to me enough times. My experience internationally is that “full service” carriers will put you on a later flight if you turn up late for no fee or very cheap. With budget airlines, too bad so sad, buy a new ticket. IMO, having the choice of these options is far better than the US system. Legally in Japan, ANA or JAL might not have to put you on a later flight for free, but I bet they do most of the time if they can. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/315 "2017-04-11T03:08:02Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > Where does it say they have the right to remove a passenger who has already been allowed to board? Doug K, as I said in an earlier post to DrDeth, the plane was at the gate, the boarding door was still open, the plane was still on Auxiliary power (engines not turning), so it was still technically in the “boarding” process. Until the crew has the final paperwork from the boarding agent and the door is closed, you are subject to be denied boarding. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/316 "2017-04-11T03:10:18Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > Doug K, as I said in an earlier post to DrDeth, the plane was at the gate, the boarding door was still open, the plane was still on Auxiliary power (engines not turning), so it was still technically in the “boarding” process. Until the crew has the final paperwork from the boarding agent and the door is closed, you are subject to be denied boarding. Even after that, if they feel the situation warrants they can turn the plane around and kick you off. They have to do so in a safe manner (i.e. they can’t just throw you out the door at 40,000 feet–not that that’d be possible anyway since modern airplane doors are designed to take advantage of pressure differentials to be impossible to open at altitude), but they definitely can do so. It happens. It’s their fucking plane. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/317 "2017-04-11T03:15:52Z")
I think the crux of the issue was pointed out near the beginning by Richard Parker then others agreed that’s what they were saying or came around to the same position. The problem is the airline employing law enforcement to settle a commercial contract dispute without any due process. Lots of amateur lawyers here who are reflexively against the ‘man child’ have tended to overlook this. But it’s just an amateur lawyer opinion that you are ‘trespassing’ if you buy a valid ticket and they let you on the plane, then randomly name you to be removed to make room for somebody else. Many others might have gone along with being removed this way (including a couple on the flight, before this guy, I don’t know who the fourth person was). That doesn’t settle it though. Same flaw in ‘you must always do what they tell you’. The idea of that is when it’s for public safety. When it’s not police batting you around as well as the commercial entity sicing the police on you are at risk of getting in legal trouble themselves, as they should be. I bet this guy gets a pretty big settlement out of UAL, though probably out of court, and the careers of the manhandlers will probably suffer, if they remain employed. That’s the very likely practical outcome, and rough justice I think. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/318 "2017-04-11T03:15:54Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > The only relevant difference is that my choice to kick someone else cannot be based on membership in a protected class, and I have to reimburse the person I remove. Wait, the differences between your hone and an airliner? There are plenty of relevant differences, some of which I listed. And yes they are relevant because I want them to be relevant. That is the point of my comments. If the law doesn’t agree, then the law should be changed. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/319 "2017-04-11T03:18:19Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Even after that, if they feel the situation warrants they can turn the plane around and kick you off. > > It’s their fucking plane. Just because they can doesn’t mean they should. They had other options that were a lot less disruptive. Eg how about they could have paid for tickets for their crew to fly to where they needed on another carrier? The other passengers on board the flight were clearly disturbed by what happened. This story is all over facebook, reddit and lots of other social media and generally people are NOT taking the airlines side. This will be a PR nightmare for United and it will cost them some passengers in future. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/320 "2017-04-11T03:27:17Z")
No chance this dude is really a doctor. I can’t believe he hasn’t been outed yet as fast as the internet is at that. I guess that would change the narrative though. Reddit is a rabid pack of douches right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=17)