# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/481 "2017-04-11T17:12:10Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > It says that time in transit, by any means, count as duty time–and given that we don’t know how close the crew was to timing out, slow surface travel is likely to cause even more problems than getting them there by air. > > And “we don’t know” is really my point: the specific constraints the airline faced in getting the flight out of Louisville crewed is something that only their ops department knows, and so all the yahoos screaming about how the airline was incompetent or failed are basing their claims on precisely zero knowledge of the situation beyond the fact that it doesn’t line up with how they, in their infinite wisdom, have decided things ought to be, real world be damned! We know that airlines deal with this all the time, we know that other airlines and UA reroute, or reschedule crews to work around this all the time without deplaning customers. We know that if these two pilots and two cabin personnel were the only 4 people within the UA corp that could take their flights the next day the company screwed up on planning enough time, crew or resources. The airline could have simply reserved seats for them, or are you really saying that it is a huge display of confidence when an airline needs to rip customers off a plane because they can’t book seats or…use a radio to say “hey we are late but we will make it in time don’t give our seats away” But apparently that is “too hard” or “impossible” despite the fact that scheduling resources, and being prepared to deal with contingencies is kind of a required core skill for an Airline to succeed…luckily for UA in this environment customer service is not a required skill in that industry. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/482 "2017-04-11T17:12:16Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > It says that time in transit, by any means, count as duty time–and given that we don’t know how close the crew was to timing out, slow surface travel is likely to cause even more problems than getting them there by air. > > And “we don’t know” is really my point: the specific constraints the airline faced in getting the flight out of Louisville crewed is something that only their ops department knows, and so all the yahoos screaming about how the airline was incompetent or failed are basing their claims on precisely zero knowledge of the situation beyond the fact that it doesn’t line up with how they, in their infinite wisdom, have decided things ought to be, real world be damned! None of that matters. In the real world, we put all kinds of limitations on the means that businesses can use to solve their problems. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/483 "2017-04-11T17:12:35Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > And “we don’t know” is really my point: the specific constraints the airline faced in getting the flight out of Louisville crewed is something that only their ops department knows … I can agree with this. It makes me wonder, though: what would have happened had this particular flight been grounded at the last second due to a mechanical issue? Would there have been absolutely no way whatsoever to get the four crewmembers to Louisville? No backup plan? Nothing? Or, alternatively – what if those four crewmembers had been 30 minutes later than they were, and they didn’t arrive in time before _that_ particular plane took off? All those flights leaving from Louisville on Monday would have been cancelled and rescheduled due to lack of crew? Does that ever happen? I’m asking because I don’t know, myself … though I do know that planes can be grounded for mechanical reasons. Given that … “crewmembers not flying due to mechanical issue” is functionally equivalent to “crewmembers not flying due to a full plane”. And, if we allow that … why wouldn’t the backup or emergency plan for one situation not be applied for the other? I know, I know … there’s a contract and all. But still. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/484 "2017-04-11T17:12:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Wait – are you no longer upset that I summarized your post as you accusing United of being incompetent? > > It literally makes no sense whatsoever to bristle at the term “incompetence” and then immediately turn around and embrace it. So which is it? Is United incompetent for needing to move a flight crew, or not? … Let’s review. You falsely claimed that I had said “needing to transport a flight crew” was the action that had indicated United’s incompetence. I called you out on that, as I had made no such claim that was the reason. Now you’re making the false claim that I bristled at the term “incompetence”. I did not. I bristled at your false claim that I had cited “needing to transport a flight crew” as the reason for United’s incompetence. At no point did I deny United’s incompetence. Now you can’t understand why I don’t defend a position I never took, you then falsely claimed I took, and which I specifically told you I never took? Well, we can agree on one thing, this makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/485 "2017-04-11T17:13:28Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > And delay / potentially cancel subsequent flights for the day, stemming from the delay incurred by getting those crew members to their subsequent flights late. You do know that the daily airplane schedule is a domino effect. If my flight is late, then the passengers risk missing their potential connecting flights, which (depending on whether the plane stays or not to wait) risks subsequent flights are delayed, etc. > > So, if I read you correctly, you’d rather risk inconveniencing hundreds of paying customers, than one. > **[Your logical fallacy is black or white](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white)** > > You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/486 "2017-04-11T17:15:43Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > They didn’t “call in the police to beat someone” to dave money. They called the police to remove a trespasser who refused to leave. Whether you call it “call[ing] in the police to beat someone” or “call[ing] the police to remove a trespasser who refused to leave,” they did it to save money. They chose the “we’ll make you four people leave” option rather than the “we’ll offer more money until we get four volunteers” option - in order to save money. What other reason could there have been for that choice? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/487 "2017-04-11T17:16:15Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > And delay / potentially cancel subsequent flights for the day, stemming from the delay incurred by getting those crew members to their subsequent flights late. You do know that the daily airplane schedule is a domino effect. If my flight is late, then the passengers risk missing their potential connecting flights, which (depending on whether the plane stays or not to wait) risks subsequent flights are delayed, etc. > > **So, if I read you correctly, you’d rather risk inconveniencing hundreds of paying customers, than one**. _A la_ a mechanical failure. Or a situation where the crew were even later than they were. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/488 "2017-04-11T17:18:46Z")
Yeah…back in the early 60’s when planes were small, gas was cheap and flight scedules were far, FAR less packed I can see loading up that extra plane that happened to be in the hanger and flying a lone passenger that had been publicly guaranteed a flight. This ain’t the 60’s, planes are a lot larger, fuel is a lot more expensive, and spare planes and crews available at the drop of a hat is a fevre dream. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/489 "2017-04-11T17:19:49Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I can agree with this. It makes me wonder, though: what would have happened had this particular flight been grounded at the last second due to a mechanical issue? Would there have been absolutely no way whatsoever to get the four crewmembers to Louisville? No backup plan? Nothing? > > Or, alternatively – what if those four crewmembers had been 30 minutes later than they were, and they didn’t arrive in time before _that_ particular plane took off? > > All those flights leaving from Louisville on Monday would have been cancelled and rescheduled due to lack of crew? Does that ever happen? I’m asking because I don’t know, myself … though I do know that planes can be grounded for mechanical reasons. > > Given that … “crewmembers not flying due to mechanical issue” is functionally equivalent to “crewmembers not flying due to a full plane”. And, if we allow that … why wouldn’t the backup or emergency plan for one situation not be applied for the other? > > I know, I know … there’s a contract and all. But still. Perhaps there was a backup plan. And perhaps they deemed it inferior for whatever reason to putting the crew on this flight, so they went with their first choice. Presumably, the planners were counting on everyone involved behaving like an adult; that in this case some fuckhead decided to channel his inner three-year-old is hardly something the planners can be faulted for not accounting for in advance. Hell, maybe they did account for it and decided that on analysis of the risk of someone being a shit it was still a superior choice–and assuming their risk calculations were correct, the fact that this happened to be the one time out of a thousand or million or whatever that the shit hit the fan doesn’t make them wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/490 "2017-04-11T17:20:54Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > [Delta has also paid as much as $11,000 to overbooked passengers.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2017/04/09/why-delta-air-lines-paid-me-11000-not-to-fly-to-florida-this-weekend/#79f5f5064de1) You didn’t read the article, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/491 "2017-04-11T17:21:49Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Whether you call it “call[ing] in the police to beat someone” or “call[ing] the police to remove a trespasser who refused to leave,”… Unless you have evidence that they instructed that police officer to act as he did, then what you call it _does_ matter. Do you have anything to show us that they called in people to beat that passenger, or not? If not, what’s wrong with saying what actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/492 "2017-04-11T17:25:21Z")
[quote=“Okrahoma, post:490, topic:784171”] > [@Sailboat](#): > > [Delta has also paid as much as $11,000 to overbooked passengers.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2017/04/09/why-delta-air-lines-paid-me-11000-not-to-fly-to-florida-this-weekend/#79f5f5064de1)You didn’t read the article, did you? The one that involved a family of three adults bumped of off two separate flights and being put up two days in a hotel room? Leaving aside the costs of hotel and food, how much did each passenger receive per bumped flight? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/493 "2017-04-11T17:29:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Personally I’m not too fond of blackmail, even if it’s The Big Guys That Have So Much Money We Should Be Able To Soak Them For All They’re Worth. How is it blackmail? As others have noted, it’s not like a planeload of people can easily conspire to refuse all bids until the bids get stratospheric. Each person has their own valuation of their time and their appointments for the next day. If they raise their offer by a couple hundred dollars at a time, along the way individual passengers will say, “that’s a good enough deal for me,” and by the time (in this case) four people’s prices have been met, everyone’s happy. But no one can hold out to soak the airline because a planeful of people will undercut them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/494 "2017-04-11T17:29:20Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > At this point, you shouldn’t have an opinion at all, because you know precisely jack shit about the situation. No need to be rude. Let me know if you’d like to discuss this without being rude. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/495 "2017-04-11T17:32:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No need to be rude. Let me know if you’d like to discuss this without being rude. Can we also do it without histrionics about the the airlines beating people up? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/496 "2017-04-11T17:33:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless you have evidence that they instructed that police officer to act as he did, then what you call it _does_ matter. Do you have anything to show us that they called in people to beat that passenger, or not? If not, what’s wrong with saying what actually happened? If you would kindly read what I wrote, and was responding to, you would make more sense. If you want to argue that point, that’s _fine_. You and I _happen to agree on that point_, as I’ve already told you, but you seem to still want to argue about it _with me_. So WTF, dude? But I didn’t want to argue either side of it _with **Beren**._ I wanted to to just debate him over whether they did what they did _for money_ or not. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/497 "2017-04-11T17:33:37Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Perhaps there was a backup plan. And perhaps they deemed it inferior for whatever reason to putting the crew on this flight, so they went with their first choice. Presumably, the planners were counting on everyone involved behaving like an adult; that in this case some fuckhead decided to channel his inner three-year-old is hardly something the planners can be faulted for not accounting for in advance. > > Hell, maybe they did account for it and decided that on analysis of the risk of someone being a shit it was still a superior choice–and assuming their risk calculations were correct, the fact that this happened to be the one time out of a thousand or million or whatever that the shit hit the fan doesn’t make them wrong. So you admit this is purely opinion despite the fact that you debased people up thread for sharing what you claimed were just opinions? The general consensus looking at discussions by people actually in the industry is that this was unprofessional and was most likely meant to save the company money to avoid the cost of rerouting a crew or paying overtime. This is the dance that they have to do every day…UA decided to error on the side of profits at the cost of customer satisfaction. It if was due to a flu break out, emergency or weather event the company could have said so in their press release…and the public would be considerably less critical. The fact that they admitted that this is policy to just avoid rerouting a dead headed crew ie exactly why the shit hit the fan and why they are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/498 "2017-04-11T17:34:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can we also do it without histrionics about the the airlines beating people up? If you’d like – we could also do it without straw-manning about wanting to change the rules retroactively, when most of the discussion is about dumb business practices and how the rules should change going forward. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/499 "2017-04-11T17:34:26Z")
I saw somebody on Twitter say that the flight crew didn’t even end up getting to Louisville on time. Does anybody know if this is accurate? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/500 "2017-04-11T17:37:04Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Hell, maybe they did account for it and decided that on analysis of the risk of someone being a shit it was still a superior choice–and assuming their risk calculations were correct, **the fact that this happened to be the one time out of a thousand or million or whatever that the shit hit the fan doesn’t make them wrong**. I’ll let the airline’s actions going forward indicate “what makes them wrong”. They absolutely will treat this incident as an instructive one, and not as a one-off that need never be accounted for in the future. Keep in mind that this is the era of the cell-phone video and social media – the calculus is different now than it was even a decade ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=26)