# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/541 "2017-04-11T18:41:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > and when he refused to exit the aircraft, they should have…? What’s the answer to the _whole_ question? Easiest would be to tell him “Sir, according to the contract you signed when you purchased your ticket, you have been randomly selected to be deplaned. If you leave now, you will be compensated in $x amount, if you refuse to give up your seat, you will be charged another $y for it.” If he refuses, you charge him the surcharge, and randomly select another passenger. Done. No blood, no screaming, no 2 1/2 hour delay, no PR nightmare, no possible lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/542 "2017-04-11T18:42:23Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [United’s stock is falling 3.7% and wiping $830 million off the airline’s market cap](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/uniteds-stock-is-set-to-fall-5-and-wipe-1-billion-off-the-airlines-market-cap-2017-04-11) (MarketWatch, 4/11/2017) I guess they should have offered passengers 830 million dollars to give up their seat. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/543 "2017-04-11T18:42:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Still sticking with that “He was only allowed to be deboarded, not deplaned” shtick, I see. In your legal and contracting expertise, are the two phrases/concepts entirely interchangeable in contracts? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/544 "2017-04-11T18:43:16Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If the police used “excessive force” to arrest a shoplifter at Walmart, is Walmart responsible? Why? Because they called the cops? If Walmart arbitrarily decided to take back a TV that a customer had already paid for because one of their employees wanted it, and refused to compensate him reasonably for his trouble, then called the cops and said he was a shoplifter, yes I’d say they’re absolutely responsible for anything that happens after that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/545 "2017-04-11T18:45:47Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Crewmembers gave bad instructions breaking the deal with the passenger, UA chose to resort to violence to resolve the situation instead of paying a fair price or resolving the situation in a non-violent manner. They are responsible for the use of violence, whenever you needlessly use force to resolve a situation there’s a risk of excessive force, and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to hold the entity that called for violence responsible for the results of said call. The fact that it’s legal for airlines to use violence against people when the airline isn’t living up to it’s side of a bargain is a PROBLEM highlighted in this situation, not something that makes it OK. > > If you call in people to use violence against someone instead of amicably resolving your financial dispute, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to call that use of violence an attack. Especially when the financial dispute is because you don’t want to pay the person even 1% of a reasonable hourly rate (as demonstrated by UA’s paying that hourly rate to an employee) for his time. UA didn’t break any contract, they didn’t resort to violence, they didn’t call in anyone to use violence, and they are under no obligation to base any payments on the supposed hour rates of any employees. Have you got any evidence at all to back your silly claims? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/546 "2017-04-11T18:47:27Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If Walmart arbitrarily decided to take back a TV that a customer had already paid for because one of their employees wanted it, and refused to compensate him reasonably for his trouble, then called the cops and said he was a shoplifter, yes I’d say they’re absolutely responsible for anything that happens after that. I take it you are going to ignore the difference between the two situations, no matter how many times it is explained to you? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/547 "2017-04-11T18:48:49Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If you call in people to use violence against someone instead of amicably resolving your financial dispute Except they weren’t resolving a “financial dispute,” they were removing a trespasser. Regardless of the sequence of events that led up to the situation, the fact is that the moment the crew told him that he wasn’t flying that day, the fuckhead in question no longer had any legal permission to be on the plane. It doesn’t matter if he felt inconvenienced, it doesn’t matter if he felt he was in the right–that’s something you settle _later_, in court, not on the spot. At the moment you’re told by the owner (or agents thereof) of the plane that you’re no longer allowed on, then you get your ass off as soon as you safely can, and if you refuse, you’re a trespasser. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/548 "2017-04-11T18:49:39Z")
The thing that is going to sink United over this is that it was crew members who needed seats. Businesses should favor customers over employees. This is like a restaurant telling the people at a table to leave because the waiters need to sit there so they can have dinner. The only time United should kick a passenger out of his seat for a crew member is if the passenger is sitting in the cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/549 "2017-04-11T18:49:50Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If Walmart arbitrarily decided to take back a TV that a customer had already paid for because one of their employees wanted it Except that’s not what happened here, because once you buy a TV it’s yours, but an airline ticket only gives you a revocable license, not an ownership interest. Don’t use shitty and irrelevant analogies, okay? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/550 "2017-04-11T18:50:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > UA didn’t break any contract We don’t know this. There have been legal opinions by posters and in cites in this thread on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/551 "2017-04-11T18:51:41Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Crewmembers gave bad instructions **breaking the deal** with the passenger… The fact that it’s legal for airlines to use violence against people **when the airline isn’t living up to it’s side of a bargain** … You still have no idea what the contract is between the airline and the passenger, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/552 "2017-04-11T18:51:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Easiest would be to tell him “Sir, according to the contract you signed when you purchased your ticket, you have been randomly selected to be deplaned. If you leave now, you will be compensated in $x amount, if you refuse to give up your seat, you will be charged another $y for it.” > > If he refuses, you charge him the surcharge, and randomly select another passenger. Done. > > No blood, no screaming, no 2 1/2 hour delay, no PR nightmare, no possible lawsuits. And those that can afford it can ignore the rules others have to embrace. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/553 "2017-04-11T18:51:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We don’t know this. There have been legal opinions by posters and in cites in this thread on both sides. It doesn’t even matter if they broke a contract or not. If they did, that’s the sort of thing you settle later on, in court. The law doesn’t recognize self-help as a remedy, even if you really really really feel that you’re in the right. It’s still their plane, so you get off when they tell you to get off–since the question of ownership of the plane is (usually) the one thing that can be settled quickly and on the spot in a way that doesn’t cause mass chaos (assuming everyone acts like an adult–and when that doesn’t happen, the blame for that lies solely with whatever fuckhead decided not to act like an adult), that’s what things default to in the moment. If they did so in a manner that’s inconsistent with the contract or with their other legal obligations, then you take care of that in court and if the court finds for you, you’ll be awarded damages. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/554 "2017-04-11T18:54:44Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > The thing that is going to sink United over this is that it was crew members who needed seats. Businesses should favor customers over employees. This is like a restaurant telling the people at a table to leave because the waiters need to sit there so they can have dinner. The only time United should kick a passenger out of his seat for a crew member is if the passenger is sitting in the cockpit. Really? How is it you suppose those crews get to where _you_ need them to be when you need them to be there? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/555 "2017-04-11T18:55:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Really? How is it you suppose those crews get to where _you_ need them to be when you need them to be there? Magic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/556 "2017-04-11T18:55:44Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > It doesn’t even matter if they broke a contract or not. If they did, that’s the sort of thing you settle later on, in court. The law doesn’t recognize self-help as a remedy, even if you really really really feel that you’re in the right. > > It’s still their plane, so you get off when they tell you to get off–since the question of ownership of the plane is (usually) the one thing that can be settled quickly and on the spot in a way that doesn’t cause mass chaos, that’s what things default to in the moment. If they did so in a manner that’s inconsistent with the contract or with their other legal obligations, then you take care of that in court and if the court finds for you, you’ll be awarded damages. The discussion has been covering the leadup and aftermath of the incident, including the situation the airline put themselves in and their decisions before boarding started, and including potential lawsuits and such going forward – not just the actions immediately prior to the passenger being dragged off the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/557 "2017-04-11T18:57:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The discussion has been covering the leadup and aftermath of the incident, including the situation the airline put themselves in and their decisions before boarding started There shouldn’t be any discussion about that, because none of us have the information needed to form a meaningful opinion about it. “I don’t know but I’m going to spout off my uninformed opinion anyway” is the kind of shit that led to people thinking it was okay to vote for Orange Hitler. > [@](#): > > not just the actions immediately prior to the passenger being dragged off the plane. That’s the only thing any of us know anything about, though, so it’s the only valid, meaningful discussion surrounding all this. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/558 "2017-04-11T18:58:09Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I guess they should have offered passengers 830 million dollars to give up their seat. Not a binary choice between “no compensation” and “$830 million”. I personally believe once they started talking “thousands” instead of “hundreds”, they get their volunteers summarily. There is an account that after the $800 vouchers were offered, one passenger volunteered to deboard for $1600, and was refused. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/559 "2017-04-11T18:58:45Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > There shouldn’t be any discussion about that, because none of us have the information needed to form a meaningful opinion about it. > > That’s the only thing any of us know anything about, though, so it’s the only valid, meaningful discussion surrounding all this. Some of us disagree. It’s okay – we can still be decent people and disagree on things like this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/560 "2017-04-11T18:59:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The discussion has been covering the leadup and aftermath of the incident, including the situation the airline put themselves in and their decisions before boarding started, and including potential lawsuits and such going forward – not just the actions immediately prior to the passenger being dragged off the plane. 1. Emergencies happen. 2. What is it with your refusal to assign any blame to the screaming passenger that was breaking the law? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=29)