# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/561 "2017-04-11T19:00:41Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > [And now this:](http://www.tmz.com/?adid=TMZ_Web_Nav_News) Apparently it’s the wrong guy as well. Just someone trying to besmirch the real passengers name, it looks like. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/562 "2017-04-11T19:01:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What’s very surprising to me is that the airlines on the high end of bumping passengers involuntarily are generally viewed as the airlines that I think people are most loyal to, and are probably regarded as the most customer-friendly airlines: Southwest and JetBlue. Southwest bumps about 1 in 12,000 passengers, and during this reporting period, JetBlue bumps 1 out of 8,000 passengers – very nearly three times the rate of United and American. Well, if you don’t even know this happens, you can’t make a judgment based on it. I’ve flown somewhere in the neighborhood of 120-150 flights on Southwest, since they do nonstops between BWI and Tampa, which would give me somewhere between a 1/80 and 1/100 chance of being involuntarily bumped, but like I’ve said, not only has it not happened to me (no surprise, at those odds), I’ve never seen it happen. > [@](#): > > Since JetBlue does not oversell any of its flights, it’s very surprising to me that the airlines that DO oversell flights generally perform better than them. I don’t know why this occurs. Another factor to consider is that a lot of routes have only one or two carriers serving them. You might have nothing to compare your airline to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/563 "2017-04-11T19:01:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Emergencies happen. I agree! Emergencies are events that sometimes happen in the real world. > [@](#): > > 1. What is it with your refusal to assign any blame to the screaming passenger that was breaking the law? I’m not aware of any such “refusal to assign blame”. He should have obeyed instructions, and it was wrong of him not to do so. I’ve already said this in this thread, I’m quite sure. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/564 "2017-04-11T19:02:32Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Not a binary choice between “no compensation” and “$830 million”. > > I personally believe once they started talking “thousands” instead of “hundreds”, they get their volunteers summarily. There is an account that after the $800 vouchers were offered, one passenger volunteered to deboard for $1600, and was refused. I could have sworn that another poster said that the likeliest outcome was that the passengers were more likely to undercut each other to make sure they got picked, and that talk of bidding wars was just fantasy. I guess I imagined that, too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/565 "2017-04-11T19:05:39Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Except they weren’t resolving a “financial dispute,” they were removing a trespasser. > > Regardless of the sequence of events that led up to the situation, the fact is that the moment the crew told him that he wasn’t flying that day, the fuckhead in question no longer had any legal permission to be on the plane. . _Regardless of the sequence of events_ …:rolleyes::dubious: “Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?” We all agree he should have left (and perhaps contacted a lawyer). The issue\* is\* the fucking \* sequence of events \*. 1. United should have planned ahead. 2. United should have offered a larger inducement 3. United should not have let the selected passengers board in the first place. United’s\* three\* plus errors led to the passenger’s error- which led to the cops error. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/566 "2017-04-11T19:06:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We don’t know this. There have been legal opinions by posters and in cites in this thread on both sides. Actually the one and only opinion by a actual lawyer that I have seen is that United indeed is liable for a suit. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/567 "2017-04-11T19:09:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Really? How is it you suppose those crews get to where _you_ need them to be when you need them to be there? They get there somehow else. If a plane is full of paying passengers, United should have an alternate plan to get them to their location. In the normal case, United pre-books the crew’s seats on the plane and this situation doesn’t come up. Here they didn’t have that opportunity, but there are many other solutions available to them, such as having them take another flight, shifting crew around at the destination airport, etc. Kicking paying passengers off for employees should be the last resort and only done for some sort of emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/568 "2017-04-11T19:10:55Z")
Please critique this summary of actual events: [ol] [li]United had a problem where they had to get 4 paid passengers off the plane in order to transport a flight crew. [/li] [li]They were not able to get 4 volunteers to leave. [/li] [li]United had the right to remove this passenger, apparently selected at random, from the flight, even after he had taken his seat.[/li] [li]The flight crew felt unable to get him to leave the plane when he refused repeatedly to leave. [/li] [li]The flight crew (or someone from the airline) called in law enforcement to remove the passenger. [/li] [li]In the process of removing the passenger by force, the passenger got a bloody nose or mouth. [/li] [li]In spite of whatever injuries this passenger suffered, he was able to run back onto the plane, from which he was removed a second time (I haven’t seen an account of how he was removed the second time).[/li][/ol] If there are any relevant missing events, or if any of these are irrelevant, I would like to hear about it. My conclusions about all this: The passenger behaved badly. There is no evidence that anyone other than his own convenience would have suffered by any delay in his travel. He is a doctor but he was not on his way to perform emergency surgery or anything like that (as far as we know, I feel certain that if he had been on the way to an emergency that would have come out by now). He had no legitimate reason to refuse to leave the plane. The airline behaved, if not badly, at least in a very ill-advised and tone-deaf manner. From the overall way they deal with bumping people from flights to the specifics of this situation, they seemed to have blinders on which kept them from seeing anything other than their need to transport the flight crew. Customer relations were sucked out the window like Goldfinger. The law enforcement officers were incompetent (IANA LEO nor ever have been, this is just my opinion). I would never have tried to lean over two seats to remove someone from the window seat. One alternative would be to get the people out of the row behind him and then lift him up under the shoulders from behind, being careful not to bang his head on anything, and then drag him out from there if necessary. I expect there are other ways they might have done this better than it was done. So, plenty of black marks to go around, but the primary fault under existing circumstances lies with the passenger. The airline may be blamed for clumsy policies and execution of those policies, but that is not on the same level as refusing an order to leave for no other reason than “I don’t want to.” “I am a doctor and I don’t want to” is no better. The LEOs were clumsy but they would not have been in this situation if not for the passenger’s recalcitrant attitude. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/569 "2017-04-11T19:11:41Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Magic. Planning. Look, I understand about weather emergencies. But here in the mid-Atlantic, we tend to get the weather everybody further west of us got, just a few days later. And from Saturday through today (Tuesday), the weather’s been great. So on Saturday and Sunday, the weather over most of the country was probably pretty good. Am I wrong about this? Were there weather emergencies on Saturday and Sunday that screwed things up in the Midwest? Absent any mention of specific weather issues, my assumption is that this is how effective United’s logistics are _when they’re encountering no unusual problems_. And in that situation, they shouldn’t be in the position of finding out \*after boarding has begun, fercryinoutloud, \*that the crew they’ve got in Chicago needs to be in Louisville. You’d think they’d have a bit more clue than that. Lord help them if a major storm system is over the Midwest. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/570 "2017-04-11T19:11:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Really? How is it you suppose those crews get to where _you_ need them to be when you need them to be there? Because of course, that was the _only_ plane or other transport from Chicago to Louisville. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/571 "2017-04-11T19:12:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not aware of any such “refusal to assign blame”. He should have obeyed instructions, and it was wrong of him not to do so. I’ve already said this in this thread, I’m quite sure. When prodded, you admitted that he was wrong to disobey instructions, but you also seem to think that his “punishment” for disobeying the direct order of the pilot should be either rewarding him with more money, or telling other passengers “I know he got picked randomly, but when he started screaming we thought it would be easier to pick someone else instead-sorry.” People have gotten kicked off planes for being a lot less histrionic then he was on that flight, the pilot’s word is LAW, and after he ran back onto the plane they should have tossed his ass in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/572 "2017-04-11T19:12:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, if you don’t even know this happens, you can’t make a judgment based on it. > > I’ve flown somewhere in the neighborhood of 120-150 flights on Southwest, since they do nonstops between BWI and Tampa, which would give me somewhere between a 1/80 and 1/100 chance of being involuntarily bumped, but like I’ve said, not only has it not happened to me (no surprise, at those odds), I’ve never seen it happen. I’m not following what you mean by “if I don’t even know this happens.” What is the “this” in your sentence? That passengers get bumped? Because this is FAA data I’m talking about, not some dude’s airline blog. It’s perfectly clear that this is accurate data on how many total people get bumped for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/573 "2017-04-11T19:12:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I could have sworn that another poster said that the likeliest outcome was that the passengers were more likely to undercut each other to make sure they got picked, and that talk of bidding wars was just fantasy. > I guess I imagined that, too. Huh? You’re missing something here. The bit about the $1,600 just demonstrated that the price point to successfully solicit volunteers was achievable and not all that far off. Why quit at $800? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/574 "2017-04-11T19:12:51Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > No chance this dude is really a doctor. I can’t believe he hasn’t been outed yet as fast as the internet is at that. I guess that would change the narrative though. Reddit is a rabid pack of douches right now. He’s a former doctor, his story isn’t holding water. > **[David Dao, passenger removed from United flight, now in spotlight](https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/)** > > Incident being talked about around the world and in the Kentucky town where doctor has worked to regain his license ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/575 "2017-04-11T19:14:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When prodded, you admitted that he was wrong to disobey instructions, but you also seem to think that his “punishment” for disobeying the direct order of the pilot should be either rewarding him with more money, or telling other passengers “I know he got picked randomly, but when he started screaming we thought it would be easier to pick someone instead.” People have gotten kicked off planes for being a lot less histrionic then he was on that flight, the pilot’s word is LAW, and after he ran back onto the plane they should have tossed his ass in jail. Where did I (or anyone) say he should have been “rewarded with more money”? All of the “more money” suggestions that I’ve made and seen in this thread have been about how the airline should have induced enough volunteers (by offering more money in the auction-style compensation offer to all passengers), not more money offered to this passenger alone. So no, you haven’t accurately described my position. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/576 "2017-04-11T19:15:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because of course, that was the _only_ plane or other transport from Chicago to Louisville. :rolleyes: Depending on regulatory, contractual, scheduling, and availability constraints, it may indeed have been the only available avenue. Knowing whether that’s true or not requires information none of us have, so you can’t just assume that it’s not true–which means you can’t just assume that someone made a bad decision somewhere. Even if it wasn’t, based on the information the planners had available at the time it may well have been the least disruptive/most efficient alternative. There was only a problem because some fuckhead decided to act like a child. And a fuckhead refusing to act like an adult is not something that it’s reasonable to expect people making these plans to foresee. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/577 "2017-04-11T19:19:45Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > He’s a former doctor, his story isn’t holding water. > [David Dao, passenger removed from United flight, now in spotlight](http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/) I have no cite (yet), but apparently there are many people saying that this is a wrong David Dao. That the David Dao this reporter wrote about is completely different from the one who was on the plane. It’s a David Dao who is also a doctor and who has a very similar name, but it’s not the guy pulled off the plane. Again, no cite (yet)…but the people who are telling me it are people I trust, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/578 "2017-04-11T19:20:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I could have sworn that another poster said that the likeliest outcome was that the passengers were more likely to undercut each other to make sure they got picked, and that talk of bidding wars was just fantasy. > I guess I imagined that, too. You probably misunderstood. Someone **holding out** for way more money than they’d be willing to get off the plane for, would be undercut by people whose price point was similar to the holdout’s real price point. If I’d be willing to get off the plane for $2000, but I think I’m gonna shake down the airline for $5000 by holding out, do you think everyone else is going to play the same game? Rather unlikely! Unless practically everyone else’s real price point is $5000 or more, I’ll never get my $5000, because enough other people will settle for lesser amounts. Probably _way_ less. I’ll get my planned arrival time, and $0. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/579 "2017-04-11T19:21:54Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Please critique this summary of actual events: > > [LIST=1] > [li]United had a problem where they had to get 4 paid passengers off the plane in order to transport a flight crew. [/li] > [li]They were not able to get 4 volunteers to leave. [/li] > [li]United had the right to remove this passenger, apparently selected at random, from the flight, even after he had taken his seat.[/li] No, it has not been shown they “_had_ to”. United\* wanted\* to. Since they decided not to up the offers. They were cheaping out. _Legal_ right maybe, but perhaps not contractual or Regulatory right.The FAA/DOT has said they are investigating this\*, and legal experts seem to say they had the right to refuse boarding but not to deplane and or their legal right only is for overbooked flights. Not ferrying employees. - [United flight passenger removal being reviewed by feds | Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/11/united-flight-passenger-removal-being-reviewed-by-feds.html) _Specifically, the DOT is looking into whether United complied with the “oversales rule.”_ So, here’s the question. If United was NOT in compliance with the oversales rule, ( as hinted by the DOT)- then is the flight crew’s order to that passenger to deplane a legal order? I mean, yes, the Flight crew and captain have wide powers, but they cant order you to jump out of a plane in flight, etc. Their orders must follow regulations. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/580 "2017-04-11T19:24:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And those that can afford it can ignore the rules others have to embrace. If the fine was part of the rules, then everyone would be embracing it all together. If your complaint is that those who can afford it wouldn’t have to give up their seats, well, that’s a good point, the same point that those who can afford it can pass up the chance for $800 for giving up their seat. So, you are randomly selected to get up from your seat, gather your belongings, and head back up the aisle and jetway to wait until the next plane that’s headin your way. You have two options, get up and go, and get your compensation of 2-4 times your ticket price, plus hotel accommodations and maybe a first class upgrade, or you can stay in your seat, and you owe the airline 1-2 times your ticket’s value before you can fly with them again. > [@bordelond](#): > > Not a binary choice between “no compensation” and “$830 million”. > > I personally believe once they started talking “thousands” instead of “hundreds”, they get their volunteers summarily. There is an account that after the $800 vouchers were offered, one passenger volunteered to deboard for $1600, and was refused. It seems they should at least go up to the maximum involuntary compensation. My understanding is that this guy should have gotten ~$1300 as compensation if he had been involuntarily bumped, so they should have at least taken the auction to there. They really should have taken the auction to the max involuntary payout, before randomly selecting passengers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=30)