# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/601 "2017-04-11T20:00:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I didn’t see where he started screaming until after he was bloody. > > He was not cooperative, but that’s not screaming. > > And if you are complaining about someone screaming after they have had their head slammed into an arm rest, then that’s a pretty weak complaint. [Have another look.](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/united-airlines-video_uk_58eb98e3e4b058f0a030fedc) He was screaming, and it was before there was any blood to be seen. BTW, for someone that was [del]playing possum[/del] supposedly knocked unconscious, he seemed to have no problem breaking loose and running back onto that airplane, did he? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/602 "2017-04-11T20:00:54Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > As both you and Czarcasm missed, I said the airline was breaking the deal with the customer, not that they violated the contract or any specific law. I would not be surprised if this is allowed in the lengthy fine print attached to the contract, but I don’t consider using fine print buried in a big document to get out of a deal to be actually sticking to the deal. You’ve got a funny notion of what a deal consists of, in which the contract doesn’t constitute a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/603 "2017-04-11T20:01:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > United’s smart move would have been to offer more money in the first place, not AFTER ordering someone off the plane. That’s clearly what people are saying. They did. More than once. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/604 "2017-04-11T20:02:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > BTW, for someone that was [del]playing possum[/del] supposedly knocked unconscious, he seemed to have no problem breaking loose and running back onto that airplane, did he? This is in your expert medical opinion (from afar), I take it, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/605 "2017-04-11T20:03:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They did. More than once. Yes, they did it twice. I and others are suggesting they should have done this more times. Higher amounts would have greatly increased the chances of volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/606 "2017-04-11T20:05:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is in your expert medical opinion (from afar), I take it, right? It is my observation. Do you have a better one, based on _your_ expert medical opinion? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/607 "2017-04-11T20:08:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’ve got a funny notion of what a deal consists of, in which the contract doesn’t constitute a deal. A Lawyer has been cited in that they were in violation of said contract. And the DOT is investigating the issue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/608 "2017-04-11T20:08:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is my observation. Do you have a better one, based on _your_ expert medical opinion? I don’t have one, nor do I have legal and contracting expertise to comment on whether or not UA violated their contract with their passenger. I’m very impressed that you have such expertise in both, though. You probably save a lot of money on both medical and legal matters! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/609 "2017-04-11T20:11:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, they did it twice. I and others are suggesting they should have done this more times. Higher amounts would have greatly increased the chances of volunteers. How many times, and how high a price? At what point does the captain get to say “We’ve wasted enough time, and we’re about to lose our spot in line. Negotiations is over-get four of them off this plane, _now!_”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/610 "2017-04-11T20:14:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t have one, nor do I have legal and contracting expertise to comment on whether or not UA violated their contract with their passenger. > > I’m very impressed that you have such expertise in both, though. You probably save a lot of money on both medical and legal matters! And you seem to have no problem with speculations that line up with your personal opinions. if you want to stick to the facts, then both sides have to play the same game. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/611 "2017-04-11T20:16:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Have another look.](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/united-airlines-video_uk_58eb98e3e4b058f0a030fedc) He was screaming, and it was before there was any blood to be seen. > BTW, for someone that was [del]playing possum[/del] supposedly knocked unconscious, he seemed to have no problem breaking loose and running back onto that airplane, did he? Ummm, his back is to you in that video, of course you can’t see any blood until they drag him down the aisle. If it makes you feel any better, I will concede that it is possible that he started screaming when they started yanking him out of his seat, and before they busted his head on the armrest. But your claim was that he was screaming before it was decided to forcibly remove him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/612 "2017-04-11T20:17:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A Lawyer has been cited in that they were in violation of said contract. > > And the DOT is investigating the issue. What kind of lawyer-one that sues airlines on behalf of customers, or a more neutral one? And if _course_ the DOT is investigating-it’s what they do whenever a passenger causes a problem of this sort. Let’s not imply that it means they smell wrong-doing from the airline, o.k.? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/613 "2017-04-11T20:19:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But your claim was that he was screaming before it was decided to forcibly remove him. I don’t recall saying any such thing…but at least you can hear the screaming now. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/614 "2017-04-11T20:21:06Z")
It’s amazing there are posters here arguing that people should just roll over and lick the boots of a greedy corporation and an abusive police officer. The officer has been suspended and his department has distanced themselves from his behavior. The CEO of United has said: > [@](#): > > “Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard,” he wrote. “No one should ever be mistreated this way.” > > He added the company will “take full responsibility” and is undertaking a “thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement.” It appears to me that both the airline and the law enforcement agency involved have acknowledged wrongdoing in this. Per the OP’s speculation, United has indeed taken a major PR and financial hit, and the Chicago Aviation Police seem to be preparing for the eventuality of paying damages to the man who was removed with undue force by an officer who is now suspended from duty. And still, we have people arguing he was at fault for not immediately complying with a decision that was fucked up and mismanaged from A to Z. He probably should have known if he refused to comply he would get beaten up, but that having happened doesn’t put the airline or police on the right side of the situation just because it was predictable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/615 "2017-04-11T20:21:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What kind of lawyer-one that sues airlines on behalf of customers, or a more neutral one? > And if _course_ the DOT is investigating-it’s what they do whenever a passenger causes a problem of this sort. Let’s not imply that it means they smell wrong-doing from the airline, o.k.? ““It’s pretty outrageous,” said Jim Keindler an aviation lawyer with Kreindler & Kreindler in New York for 34 years… Kreindler has seen just about everything over the course of three and a half decades representing air travelers, so when I saw the video, I called to ask what he thought. “That’s a compelling suit,” he told me explaining, “For United to decide an employee’s presence is more important than a doctor seeing patients is pretty wild…But even if the passenger isn’t a doctor, Kreindler says the airline does not have the right to evict passengers without cause. “First of all its wrong, it’s their problem to get their people where they have to be to work, work from even if it means flying them on another carrier. They shouldn’t be forcibly removing people by lottery,” he said.”” _James P. Kreindler joined Kreindler & Kreindler LLP in 1983 and became a partner in 1987. He is a magna cum laude graduate of Dartmouth College, 1977. He received his J.D. degree from Columbia University in 1980, where he was a Harlan Fiske Stone scholar. He began his career as an Assistant District Attorney in the Kings County (Brooklyn) District Attorneys’ Office._ Let’s not imply that it _doesn’t_ mean that until they are finished with their investigation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/616 "2017-04-11T20:23:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many times, and how high a price? At what point does the captain get to say “We’ve wasted enough time, and we’re about to lose our spot in line. Negotiations is over-get four of them off this plane, _now!_”? I think United would have saved a lot of money if they had gone as high as it takes (which I don’t think would be likely to be higher than two grand or so). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/617 "2017-04-11T20:23:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many times, and how high a price? At what point does the captain get to say “We’ve wasted enough time, and we’re about to lose our spot in line. Negotiations is over-get four of them off this plane, _now!_”? Apparently at the point when the pilot has decided that his convenience is more important not only than the safety of his passengers, but also the profitability of the airline he works for. As I said before, a good limit would be the maximum payout to an involuntary removal. As it was they offered $800, but would be paying out more than $1300 is no one took them up on that. So I don’t understand why they could not offer the $1300 they would have had to pay out anyway. Assuming that the plane if full of varying fairs, they may have had fares as high as $4-500, meaning they would have been paying out $1600-$2000 if those were the passengers randomly selected. The auction system saves them money, allowing them to bump people for far less than they would have if it were involuntary. That’s fine, but when your money saving technique doesn’t work, I do not find it ethically acceptable to take that out on passengers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/618 "2017-04-11T20:24:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you seem to have no problem with speculations that line up with your personal opinions. if you want to stick to the facts, then both sides have to play the same game. I try to confine my speculation into areas I have good experience with, like morality, logistics, and business practices. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/619 "2017-04-11T20:24:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, this is not my position. I was suggesting something that the airline could have done earlier, to induce volunteers to give up their seats. Ok, but what do you think the airline should do once a disruptive passenger fails to follow crewmember instructions? Nothing? Take the matter into their own hands by having the crew physically remove him? Or call the police? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/620 "2017-04-11T20:24:59Z")
“…Kreindler has seen just about everything over the course of three and a half decades representing air travelers…” So-not neutral at all, is he? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=32)