# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/621 "2017-04-11T20:25:08Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > That’s because once you purchase the shirt, you own the shirt. > > You don’t own the seat. A ticket is just a grant of a revocable license to sit in the seat; it does not create an ownership interest. > > Really, that’s just a shitty and irrelevant analogy all around. > > Especially since the police _will_ still remove you from the store. You’ll keep the shirt, but you’ll still be kicked out of the store. Because it’s their store, and as long as they’re not doing it _because_ of membership in a protected class, they can bar anyone they want for any reason they want. Sorry for the shitty analogy. But as a matter of fact the police did NOT remove the person from the store; in fact they did not even come, and when they were called (as I stated before) they laughed. And am I crazy or were the people who beat up on this guy not even police? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/622 "2017-04-11T20:25:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many times, and how high a price? At what point does the captain get to say “We’ve wasted enough time, and we’re about to lose our spot in line. Negotiations is over-get four of them off this plane, _now!_”? Something to consider: United wasn’t merely asking for volunteers to be put out for a few hours. They were asking for volunteers to spend an entire extra day in Chicago, and to use their voucher for a flight out the next afternoon. An entire day’s worth of someone’s time … that’s worth enough so that it should have been known instinctively not to start the bidding at $400 and summarily end it at $800. The article below discusses a fine point about the latitude airlines have in soliciting for volunteers versus compensating involuntary deboards (my highlights): [United Airlines made a big mistake by not offering more cash](http://www.businessinsider.com/united-airlines-big-mistake-offering-cash-2017-4) (Business Insider) > [@](#): > > The Department of Transportation limits the amount an airline can compensate passengers who are _involuntarily_ bumped from a plane to a maximum of $1,350. **There is no federal limit, however, on the amount an airline can offer _volunteers_ to give up their seat.** > > In an interview with Business Insider, aviation analyst Henry Harteveldt questioned why United didn’t try to offer a bigger incentive when the situation started to escalate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/623 "2017-04-11T20:26:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A Lawyer has been cited in that they were in violation of said contract. > > And the DOT is investigating the issue. I welcome the results of DOT’s investigation. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe not. But I think the FAA would be colossally stupid to say “We are NOT investigating this,” so I wouldn’t read too much into the fact that they are. I missed the cite that you mentioned regarding the lawyer, and couldn’t find it in the last couple pages of this thread. Can you provide again? I would like to read that. ETA: looks like you posted it while I was searching and typing. Thanks, I’ll read now. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/624 "2017-04-11T20:28:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t recall saying any such thing…but at least you can hear the screaming now. lemme refresh your memory > [@Czarcasm](#): > > “I know he got picked randomly, but when he started screaming we thought it would be easier to pick someone else instead-sorry.” People have gotten kicked off planes for being a lot less histrionic then he was on that flight, This indicates that you believe that his screaming is part of the reason for his treatment, rather than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/625 "2017-04-11T20:28:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “…Kreindler has seen just about everything over the course of three and a half decades representing air travelers…” > > So-not neutral at all, is he? he is not representing the plaintiff or the defendant, so yes, neutral. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/626 "2017-04-11T20:29:10Z")
[United Airlines Customer Relations Training Film](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c) {youTube 1’48"} relevant part starts at 0’20" ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/627 "2017-04-11T20:29:49Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Ok, but what do you think the airline should do once a disruptive passenger fails to follow crewmember instructions? Nothing? Take the matter into their own hands by having the crew physically remove him? Or call the police? Not let it get to that point in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/628 "2017-04-11T20:34:24Z")
BTW, United’s shares ended the day at around -1%. Which is a lot less than the average daily move for them in the last few months. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/629 "2017-04-11T20:36:59Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I also suspect that the airline will issue an apology to the passenger who was removed and the other passengers on that flight, if they haven’t already, because they know it is extremely damaging. The optics of this are _terrible_. The “friendly skies,” indeed. [Bada bing, bada boom.](https://twitter.com/united/status/851875102769721344) “Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. **No one should ever be mistreated this way.** ” – United CEO (bolding mine) Obviously, this response is quite late to the party, but he got there eventually. Others, I am sure, will keep fucking that chicken. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/630 "2017-04-11T20:37:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Seems like this is the perfect kind of problem that the market could and should be able to solve without ever having to use physical force: continue raising the offer until someone says “yes”, and if airlines determine that this is costing them serious income, then they’ll get better at predicting how many passengers they should book. No reason physical force should ever be required. The problem is the market isn’t 100% a factor here. The government gives the airline the legal right to force people off the plane so the airline need only go so far before they can start forcibly ejecting people. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/631 "2017-04-11T20:37:34Z")
[CEO’s just apologised](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39572841) according to the Beeb; \*The CEO of United Airlines has apologised for the “truly horrific” removal of a passenger from an overbooked flight. Oscar Munoz said he “continues to be disturbed” by the incident, during which a passenger was forcibly dragged, screaming, off a plane. He said the company would “fix what’s broken so it never happens again”.\* ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/632 "2017-04-11T20:38:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many times, and how high a price? At what point does the captain get to say “We’ve wasted enough time, and we’re about to lose our spot in line. Negotiations is over-get four of them off this plane, _now!_”? Simple. He doesn’t get to say that, ever, in this situation. United has to come up with another way to transport its employees. That should be the answer mandated by law and business practice. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/633 "2017-04-11T20:39:45Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Police aren’t judges. All they’re equipped to do on the spot amounts to discerning whether or not the people who own the plane want the guy off of it, and removing him if so. > > Anything else related to the contract dispute gets settled later, in court, for damages. Otherwise, anyone who wanted to could day, “Well, I _feel_ like I’m entitled to be here, so nyah-nyah” and nothing could be done. As many times this kind of statement is repeated as some cosmic absolute, it’s still not. You and others have maintained this is true in _any_ case, so cannot complain if it’s qualified by any plausible example. So the cops are called to a business where a patron claims he paid for a good or service but it wasn’t provided nor a refund, the cops would or should always simply give that person the bum’s rush? They shouldn’t, and reasonably smart and competent cops working for a non-dysfunctional dept (there are _some_, though many don’t qualify on one or more counts) wouldn’t. Not as first action without asking the business owner, ‘do you owe this person a good/service or refund?’ or some form of ‘is there any other way you, the business owner, can see your way to trying to settle this so it doesn’t escalate further?’ The general ‘person who won’t leave the premises’ suggests ‘for no good reason’ and clouds the example, you even give that as example ‘just because I don’t feel like it’, which is not the case here. And in this case UAL had a clear ‘other way’, offering _somebody else_ more money to leave voluntarily. Several keep insisting the cops absolutely never would or should try to resolve the conflict by appealing to the business owner to step up and help solve it, but repeated insistence doesn’t make it so. Not being judges doesn’t mean absolutely automatically siding with one type of complainant. Though if you’re saying the path of political least resistance for a lot of local PD’s is to side with merchants over patrons, as an observation of what often happens, sure that often happens. But that’s not being disputed. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/634 "2017-04-11T20:42:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not let it get to that point in the first place. Sigh. That wasn’t the question. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/635 "2017-04-11T20:45:33Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > [CEO’s just apologised](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39572841) according to the Beeb; > > _He said the company would “fix what’s broken so it never happens again”._ I realize Munoz’s arm is twisted by circumstances … but what does he mean “fix what’s broken”? Many in this thread have assured us all that proper protocol was followed, the system is fine and helps keep airfare down, and so forth. What could possibly need fixing? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/636 "2017-04-11T20:48:08Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Sigh. That wasn’t the question. Your question was bad. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/637 "2017-04-11T20:48:19Z")
The CEO of United has made another statement. One that has rather more of an element of contrition. > (I’d quote it, but it is posted as an image) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/638 "2017-04-11T20:51:34Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I realize Munoz’s arm is twisted by circumstances … but what does he mean “fix what’s broken”? Many in this thread have assured us all that proper protocol was followed, the system is fine and helps keep airfare down, and so forth. > > What could possibly need fixing? A leading attorney in the field has said proper protocol wasnt followed. The DOT is investigating it. Munoz has all but admitted what they did wasnt proper. So a bunch of people who \*dont \*know the law or the procedures are saying what United did was proper. Experts disagree. Even United seems to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/639 "2017-04-11T20:53:28Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > Had United not overbooked their flight, it wouldn’t have happened, but similarly, if the man would have complied with the terms of the contract, it would not have either. > > Fault United for overbooking, but they are not the ones who hurt the man. It was the airport police who removed him from the plane. Since you were concerned that people are armchair quarterbacking and not understanding the situation – Will you concede that they did not overbook the flight? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/640 "2017-04-11T20:54:59Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Since you were concerned that people are armchair quarterbacking and not understanding the situation – Will you concede that they did not overbook the flight? That seems unclear. It may be that they did, but several passengers may have taken the deal and not even boarded in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=33)