# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/681 "2017-04-11T21:50:08Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > To be fair, \*\*Czarcasm \*\*in post #660 was responding to something specific that I wrote (that I understood Dao was not shown the contract of carriage when asked to deplane). Thank you. Being fair is always the best way to go…unless you are _damn_ sure you can slip one by, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/682 "2017-04-11T21:53:47Z")
My word, Czarcasm, I don’t think UA’s own attorneys are as committed to defending this corporation as much as you are. Go get a sandwich, walk a goat, read the funnies… ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/683 "2017-04-11T21:57:50Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > My word, Czarcasm, I don’t think UA’s own attorneys are as committed to defending this corporation as much as you are. Go get a sandwich, walk a goat, read the funnies… Maybe he owns United stock!😃 I’m just glad I haven’t had to fly since well before 9/11. It sounds to me like it’s hell. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/684 "2017-04-11T21:59:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There are faults on both sides of this case. Was the doctor an asshole? Probably. Was United within their rights to have the passenger removed from the aircraft? Probably. Did they act appropriately in this case? No, because the DOT requires them to offer cash or a check as compensation, not a voucher. Get your facts straight. DOT rules requiring cash compensation are for involuntary denials, and there’s no reports that for the passengers that were denied involuntarily (including the fuckhead in question) were given anything other than what they were legally entitled to. The vouchers were offered as an enticement to find volunteers, and there are essentially no rules on what the airline might offer as VDB compensation, because it’s voluntary and so the DOT figures you’re a big boy who can decide for yourself whether something is and is not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/685 "2017-04-11T22:00:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Calling the police is choosing to use force. Wow. Just wow. Calling the police is now “choosing to use physical force.” I strongly disagree. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/686 "2017-04-11T22:17:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m a civil defense attorney. I have more reason than anyone to doubt the statements of plaintiffs’ attorneys. But I don’t doubt this one. That is not to say that I think they are conclusive. Thank you. I agree, but they seem to be the best we have at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/687 "2017-04-11T22:23:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yeah, that kind of insinuating speculation is basically paper-towel-tube territory. Don’t bring this stuff up in topics not about it, please, because all it serves is a subtle, small potshot at another poster. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/688 "2017-04-11T22:57:20Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > Jesus. When the guy said he was a doctor with patients to see the next day they should have moved on to another randomly selected passenger. United could follow up and if he is not actually a doctor could put sanctions against him for future travel. To forcibly remove a doctor with patients to see from a flight so that air hosts make their next flight is ridiculous. There is no alternate universe where an airline is going to put itself in a position of choosing passengers based on who they think is more important. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/689 "2017-04-11T23:13:14Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I don’t give a fuck what an airline says, there is no other democratic country in the world where this would be tolerated - the sense of entitlement by this company is extraordinary. > > Jesus fucking Christ, I can’t even begin to think how the check in staff, the pilot, the cabin crew, the police got to this point. > > The other thing utterly striking is the passivity of the other passengers. Who put’s up with this shit - someone’s dignity being invaded like this by some ape in a uniform: what is the matter with these people? > > Is this really what the USA is reduced to - a bunch of obese people filming their outrage from their seats. Pathetic. > [@Ravenman](#): > > The preferred nomenclature is “pigs,” and I can only assume that you didn’t notice that two of the police officers were African American. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > WTF? > > What is the matter with you? Up\_the\_junction, are you from the US? If so, you should know better. Assuming you are not, and for the benefit of others who are not conversant with this particular collection of Americanisms: Referring to a black person as an “ape” is considered racist, and not that far from the “n-word”. This is sufficiently bad that even if there is only one or two black people in a group of a dozen referring to the group as “apes” is not going to end well. Referring to police in the US as “pigs” is also an insult, but a pretty mild one. It has a long pedigree and is not considered “fighting words”. Most cops I’ve known would probably laugh at it. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > FWIW, It’s about 260 nautical miles from Chicago to Louisville. (_Man_, things are close together back there!) In Chicago you can charter a 400 kt Cessna Citation for $2,700/hour, a 311 kt Beechcraft C90 King Air for 1,200/hour, a 295 kt Cessna 401 for $664/hour, or various other airplanes for various other prices. Note that these hourly rates are for the _aircraft_ and not per-passenger. [Link](https://www.jetcharters.com/charter-aircraft/). > > United offered $800 each to four passengers. That’s $3,200, not counting the cost of seats on a later flight. It would have been cheaper for them to charter the Citation. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > It sure does…IF that plane is available when they need it, IF it will get them to their destination in time(how fast are they compared to that jet, btw?), and IF the contract between the airline and the crew make such allowances. By the way, that time factor is why bus, train and rental car “solutions” are too silly to even think about most of the time if you need that crew there ASAP. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Note the three "IF"s in my response to make the idea viable. BTW, are the charters you found available at a moment’s notice, and are they what the contract between the airline and the crew calls for? To say that a certain solution is “available” to the general public does not mean that the same “solution” is available, or even allowed in situations like this. Average speed of an airliner is about 450-500 knots, or around 575 mph, or 925kph. Citations can cruise at around 525 knots, or 605 mph, or 975 kph. In other words, slightly faster than a commercial yet. So yes, in the hypothetical situation they can actually get the crew to Kentucky _faster_ than United can. (note: some inconsistencies in those speeds are due to my rounding, but it’s pretty minor. The citation is slightly faster, no dispute.) I will also note that Chicago Executive Airport is about 11 miles from O’Hare airport, in other words, very close, and that [citations and comparable other jets](http://www.priesterav.com/priester-aviation-fleet) are available from the multiple charter companies at CEA (link is to one such company at CEA). I base that statement on having been a pilot based at CEA for two years (back when it was still called Palwaukee) and having to share taxiways, runways, and airspace with said corporate jets. So yes, there are charter jets available that can get the job done, and they’re located a mere 11 miles from the airport where this trainwreck occurred. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > He’s a former doctor, his story isn’t holding water. > [David Dao, passenger removed from United flight, now in spotlight](http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/) > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I have no cite (yet), but apparently there are many people saying that this is a wrong David Dao. That the David Dao this reporter wrote about is completely different from the one who was on the plane. It’s a David Dao who is also a doctor and who has a very similar name, but it’s not the guy pulled off the plane. > > Again, no cite (yet)…but the people who are telling me it are people I trust, for what it’s worth. First, even if he is a doctor who lost his license that’s irrelevant to what happened on the airplane. Second, doctors who lose their licenses through misconduct can and do regain their licenses provided they discharge any legal requirements and work to get re-instated. We have at least one doctor on this forum who also had a “troubled past”, reformed himself, and is back in society’s good graces and using his talents and skills to help people. IF Dao-the-passenger is also Dao-the-naughty-doctor it seems his license has been re-instated and he is not a “former” doctor but an actual, current doctor. And thirdly, the face that there is more than one “David Dao” in this world, and more than one of them may be an MD, just shows how pernicious a clumsy internet search can be in this day and age. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/690 "2017-04-11T23:15:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The airlines set their policies knowing they can rely on law enforcement to backstop their business inefficiencies. you keep using the word “inefficiencies” in a sentence incorrectly. they are overbooking specifically to be efficient. This is why airfare is so cheap. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This problem was the airline’s making – they overbooked, and then boarded the plane. Very, very dumb business practices. They shouldn’t be able to rely on law enforcement violence, IMO, to save them money. They should be able to rely on law enforcement to enforce the law. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/691 "2017-04-11T23:17:44Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I’m just glad I haven’t had to fly since well before 9/11. It sounds to me like it’s hell. If you’re not flying around Christmas, Thanksgiving, or some other big holiday weekend, it’s almost always no big deal, IME; otherwise my wife and the Firebug and I wouldn’t keep on flying. Getting through security rarely takes more than 15 minutes, and often less than 5. Then you settle in at the gate, read a book or surf the Web 'til it’s time to get on the plane. Then you board, and if you’re at BWI, you’re in Tampa two and a half hours later without having to drive all that way. They give you a soft drink and (on Southwest) a pack of peanuts and a pack of pretzels on the way, at Tampa your bags probably get to the baggage carousel before you do, you pick up your rental car maybe having to wait behind one other customer, and next thing you know you’re buying Cuban sandwiches and guava turnovers at La Segunda bakery. As I noted earlier, the stats Ravenman quoted suggests that, despite all my travels on Southwest, the odds are nearly 100-1 against my having ever been bumped from a flight involuntarily. And of the thousands of people who get bumped, this guy seems to be the first one to have resisted getting off the plane. (Of course, this seems to have been exceptional that way too: I gather they almost always bump you before you get ON the plane.) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/692 "2017-04-12T00:01:39Z")
I would agree that pretty much everyone acted badly. I do question if a charter would be available at night on short notice. It Might not mater if a charter plane is available at a nearby airport. They would need a pilot certified to fly the plane too. Interesting suggestion Johnny L.A., but I think a moot point. IMHO, a world wide company, that has air travel as their business, should be able to cover such contingencies when a crew needs to get to another airport. Even in odd conditions. Scheduling and logistics is the real business of airliners. Emergencies happen, but no airliner can afford to have extra crew stationed at airports “just in case”. Or perhaps they do? Say a predicted storm, I don’t really know. Again, IMHO, UAL should have raised the offer to get off the plane. Now that does come with pitfalls, as one person is ok with 1000, the next 1200, and so on. Delta seems to have a good approach, with allowing you to choose your price to get bounced off the plane at check in. This FUBAR was caused by UAL. Needing to deadhead crew. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/693 "2017-04-12T00:06:42Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > That’s because once you purchase the shirt, you own the shirt. > > You don’t own the seat. A ticket is just a grant of a revocable license to sit in the seat; it does not create an ownership interest. > > Really, that’s just a shitty and irrelevant analogy all around. And this rebuttal is just as “shitty” as the whole analogy. If you whip out your card, purchase the shirt, put it on, leave from the cash register and then moments before you actually leave the store, the clerk comes up and demands that you return it – because of some fine print they have which no one really reads\* – and have to come back the next day, then not a few people are going to be really pissed. \*Sure, tell me you read every single user agreement for all your software. > [@](#): > > Especially since the police _will_ still remove you from the store. You’ll keep the shirt, but you’ll still be kicked out of the store. Because it’s their store, and as long as they’re not doing it _because_ of membership in a protected class, they can bar anyone they want for any reason they want. Yep. They can. And when a video goes viral of the police violently removing you from the store, that store is going to lose big time. > [@Ravenman](#): > > By the way, looking at the FAA data, it sure seems like Delta has an interesting overbooking issue. They involuntarily bump a very small percentage of their passengers, but they voluntarily bump a VERY large percentage of their passengers. Which suggests that Delta has figured out how to handle it better. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > UA didn’t break any contract, they didn’t resort to violence, they didn’t call in anyone to use violence, and they are under no obligation to base any payments on the supposed hour rates of any employees. They didn’t break a contract because they have a decisively one-sided contract. However, they _are_ under legal obligation to provide compensation, and in this case the legally mandated amount was higher than the what United was attempting to avoid. People or corporations which call the police in order to avoid their legal obligation gather no sympathy from me. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/694 "2017-04-12T00:08:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no alternate universe where an airline is going to put itself in a position of choosing passengers based on who they think is more important. I’m not so sure. If the random draw brought up a mother traveling with 6 children under 10 would the result have been the same? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/695 "2017-04-12T00:12:26Z")
Interesting comment to [this Fox News editorial](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/04/11/united-airlines-is-innocent.html): > [@](#): > > Eli, did you even look at the Contract of Carriage before declaring United innocent? RULE 25 allows them to deny boarding – except they didn’t do that. The passenger HAD boarded, and was already seated. It is RULE 21 that allows them to refuse transport after the customer has boarded. Except pointing as they did to the passenger for being unruly and belligerent to refuse that passenger transport ignores the fact it didn’t happen until AFTER they chose the passenger, and refused to transport him to Louisville. > > I don’t see anything in Rule 21 that United can point to – in advance of selecting to remove the passenger from the flight and refusing transport – to justify their actions. United chose to remove the passenger from the flight in violation of their own Contract of Carriage. > > United is not just far from innocent, their failure to follow their own Contract of Carriage makes them liable. Undoubtedly, an argument will be made they further increased their liability by calling security to assist with the forced removal of the passenger from the aircraft in violation of their contract with that passenger. > > Had they used their algorithm to select four passengers who would not board – actually in advance of those passengers boarding – they would be innocent. That’s not what happened. Maybe this is getting closer to what Oscar Munoz feels needs to be fixed? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/696 "2017-04-12T00:14:53Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > This FUBAR was caused by UAL. Needing to deadhead crew. Without a Plan B in case there was a problem. IOW, corporate mismanagement. Apparently United never heard of a plane being full or seats being non-expandable. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/697 "2017-04-12T00:30:59Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Without a Plan B in case there was a problem. IOW, corporate mismanagement. > > Apparently United never heard of a plane being full or seats being non-expandable. And the problem may have been as simple as UAL not informing the deadheading crew in time. The crew not getting the message. Or the deadheading crew not confirming it or a dozen other things. Or forgetting that they need to be in Louisville. And, of course, not having a plan B. I said earlier that UAL should just up the price to have a passenger volunteer to get off the plane. That would have solved this entire FUBAR. If and as the bean counters at UAL see this is costing money, they would find a way to fix it without causing a pretty much worldwide shame on their company. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/698 "2017-04-12T00:32:11Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > They stop when someone accepts their offer. It’s a pretty simple concept, really. > > I’m trying to imagine myself in that exact situation. If they had offered say, $2000, and i didn’t need to be in Louisville straight away, i’d think about taking the money and spending $100 or so on a one-way rental. It’s about a five or six hour drive. I’d arrive in Louisville about 4 hours later than scheduled, with over $1500 in my pocket. Why stop at $2000 if there’s no upper limit? Why would _anyone_ settle for $2000 when they could get a million? ---
**Author:** ![Express](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@Express](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Express)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/699 "2017-04-12T00:37:52Z")
“Had they used their algorithm to select four passengers who would not board – actually in advance of those passengers boarding – they would be innocent. That’s not what happened.” Actually, they would not be innocent. Rule 25 of United’s Contract of Carriage which allows denial of boarding can be used only for situations where the plane is “oversold”. United now admits that the plane was not oversold when they allowed the passenger to board. The airline simply wanted seats for non-paying employees who showed up at the last moment. No other part of the Contract allowed United to deny the booted passenger to board (i.e., to bump him before he boarded), nor does Rule 21 give them the right to force-ably boot him after he had been rightfully seated. United is going to pay out the nose to settle with this guy. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/700 "2017-04-12T00:38:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why stop at $2000 if there’s no upper limit? Why would _anyone_ settle for $2000 when they could get a million? Because you know that if you hold out for too much, some other passenger will jump in first and accept a much smaller amount. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=36)