# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/701 "2017-04-12T00:38:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why stop at $2000 if there’s no upper limit? Why would _anyone_ settle for $2000 when they could get a million? You ever play bluff poker against 100 people? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/702 "2017-04-12T00:38:57Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > This FUBAR was caused by UAL. Needing to deadhead crew. It’s Republic that needed to deadhead crew, not United. The gate staff were United employees (I think), but the flight crew and deadheading employees were not. I wonder if that contributed to a communication problem. And if the space was even needed for crew for a United Express flight. Republic also flies as American Eagle and Delta Connection out of Louisville. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/703 "2017-04-12T00:43:29Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > It’s Republic that needed to deadhead crew, not United. The gate staff were United employees (I think), but the flight crew and deadheading employees were not. I wonder if that contributed to a communication problem. And if the space was even needed for crew for a United Express flight. Republic also flies as American Eagle out of Louisville. Oh. Em… I’ve never even heard of Republic. Are they part of UAL? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/704 "2017-04-12T00:49:40Z")
Republic is a regional carrier that runs small routes for United, Delta, and American. The planes don’t say Republic on them, so as far as the passengers likely knew, they were on a United plane. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/705 "2017-04-12T00:50:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why stop at $2000 if there’s no upper limit? Why would _anyone_ settle for $2000 when they could get a million? This really silly point isn’t improving as it gets repeated by more people. Why shouldn’t the airline charge $1mil for the ticket to begin with? That’s not capped by any rule. Why should one among several dozen passengers go for $2k when they can hope everyone of them agrees to hold out for $1mil? Because that’s not how people work, anyone of common sense knows it’s not, and we’re dealing here in the real world. If the airline simply offers a reasonably attractive price for a whole day layover, in real money terms\* somebody will take it. Probabilistically there’s a chance all the subatomic particles in your hand and the wall line up so you can put your hand through it, but it’s not likely enough to be concerned about, similarly with a group of passengers all holding out for $1mil. And if it’s not obvious (but maybe it’s not and that’s why this silly point keeps coming back) you wouldn’t target one person like this guy and ask how much. You’d pull back, especially when obvious there was going to be an incident otherwise, and offer everybody, keep raising it till you get your volunteers. The idea this would ever turn to a financial disaster for an airline is a really stubborn refusal to accept how markets work, because of how people work. \*the $800 offer for a volunteer was a funny money ‘voucher’ toward another ticket on UAL within a limited time, not 800 real dollars, though per law the people kicked off are supposed to get real dollars and I assume will with all the attention now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/706 "2017-04-12T00:53:04Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Because you know that if you hold out for too much, some other passenger will jump in first and accept a much smaller amount. Why would _they_? Once everybody knows that there’s no limit on how much the airline will pay, there’s absolutely no incentive for _anyone_ to settle for less money than they need to never have to work another day in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/707 "2017-04-12T01:00:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why would _they_? Once everybody knows that there’s no limit on how much the airline will pay, there’s absolutely no incentive for _anyone_ to settle for less money than they need to never have to work another day in their lives. It’s really hard to believe at this point you’re not kidding. There’s 70 people say. You offer $2k real money instead of $800 ‘voucher’ to be delayed a whole day. You’re seriously saying it’s likely nobody would take the $2k but there’s instead a serious likelihood the bidding would go to $millions, enough ‘never to have to work a day in their lives’, just because there’s no nominal limit? Come to think of it that’s probably the mentality of the people who wrote the current reg with a non-inflation adjusted limit the airlines can (but aren’t required to) stay within, but it’s completely ridiculous. Again by that reasoning, if 70 people in competition will all hold out for a $1mil, why don’t just a handful of competing airlines hold out for $1mil price per ticket to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/708 "2017-04-12T01:01:09Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s signs a worldwide boycott may emerge. at the head of line will be apple owners wanting to fly to China in support of child labor. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/709 "2017-04-12T01:01:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why stop at $2000 if there’s no upper limit? Why would _anyone_ settle for $2000 when they could get a million? As i said earlier, anyone making this argument apparently does not understand the concept of an auction. Or, for that matter, economic principles such as supply, demand, scarcity, and opportunity cost. It would require collusion among 200 people who do not know one another, who have different interests, and who understand that only one person can actually win the bidding war. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/710 "2017-04-12T01:05:38Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > It’s really hard to believe at this point you’re not kidding. There’s 70 people say. You offer $2k real money instead of $800 ‘voucher’ to be delayed a whole day. You’re seriously saying it’s likely nobody would take the $2k but there’s instead a serious likelihood the bidding would go to $millions, enough ‘never to have to work a day in their lives’, just because there’s no nominal limit? Yes. What’s my incentive to settle for $2000 when I can get a million? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/711 "2017-04-12T01:07:30Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > But it is also within the company’s rights to invoke the clause when such an instance takes place. > > I’m not approaching this from a “Wow, they are doing a great job running a business!” perspective; I’m approaching it from a “legal / they are fully entitled to do this” perspective. > > As someone who has a family member who worked in the airline business, and an attorney, I can attest that, yes, unfortunately, this happens more often than people think, and that’s why they have those clauses built in to the fine print. And as an attorney (couldn’t parse that, are _you_ the attorney or is a family member) you can also appreciate the legal requirements for United to follow Federal regulations, right? As I posted above, they had the legal requirement to provide proper compensation which they did not do. The various legal talking heads are shaking their heads about that. > [@](#): > > Fault United for overbooking, but they are not the ones who hurt the man. It was the airport police who removed him from the plane. Certainly the man acted poorly. Once he was ordered off the plane, he should have left, and then pursued legal remedies then. However, had United acted according to their legal requirements first, then this likely would have been prevented. I’m not a huge fan of people or corporations who use their position of power to bully others, and then call in the police to do their dirty work when their bullying fails. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/712 "2017-04-12T01:11:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. What’s my incentive to settle for $2000 when I can get a million? How exactly do you imagine this auction would result in your getting $1mil? Walk us through it step by step, please. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/713 "2017-04-12T01:18:44Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > How exactly do you imagine this auction would result in your getting $1mil? Walk us through it step by step, please. The airline offers $1000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. Next, they offer $2000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. Next, they offer $5000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. And so on and so on. Basic game theory. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/714 "2017-04-12T01:21:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The airline offers $1000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. > > Next, they offer $2000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. > > Next, they offer $5000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. > > And so on and so on. Basic game theory. I’ll take the 5K!! Over here! I called it first!!! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/715 "2017-04-12T01:24:40Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > I’ll take the 5K!! Over here! I called it first!!! Good for you. You could have held out for a million, though. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/716 "2017-04-12T01:38:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Good for you. You could have held out for a million, though. Probably thousands (or tens or hundreds of thousands) of auctions have taken place in America in the last few years. Can you find literally a single one that went this way, in which a bunch of strangers worked together so that one of them got an amazing deal (and the rest got nothing)? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/717 "2017-04-12T01:41:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The airline offers $1000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. > > Next, they offer $2000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. > > Next, they offer $5000 to be bumped. The passengers refuse knowing that they’ll up the offer if no one takes it, and they lose nothing by not taking the offer. > > And so on and so on. Basic game theory. Basic game theory, and all kinds of everyday experience says that’s not at all what will happen in a non-colluding group of dozens. If you could at least explicitly claim you believe there’s a risk the people would all successfully collude with strangers instantly, it would less embarrassing ridiculous for you to claim this, as implausible as such collusion would be. But if you think that’s how non-colluding economic actors work, I really wonder your life experiences. As was noted by mhendo, only one or a few of them can win. You do understand that, right? So unless they have quickly, instantly, agreed with strangers to not only collude in the bidding but trust the winner (or few winners) to distribute the prize (or few prices), there is actually a lot to lose by an individual not grabbing $2k, namely the $2k somebody else will very likely take instead, and you get nothing. The overwhelmingly likelihood somebody will take $5k and you get nothing, and too overwhelmingly likely much past that to even think about on any rational basis. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/718 "2017-04-12T01:41:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. What’s my incentive to settle for $2000 when I can get a million? Do NOT go to Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/719 "2017-04-12T01:47:36Z")
Pepsi: This has been the worst week for PR. United: Hold my beer. Sean Spicer: Leeeeeroy Jenkins!!! Credit to some guy on Facebook ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/720 "2017-04-12T01:48:34Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > As was noted by mhendo, only one or a few of them can win. You do understand that, right? So unless they have quickly, instantly, agreed with strangers to not only collude in the bidding but trust the winner (or few winners) to distribute the prize (or few prices), there is actually a lot to lose by an individual not grabbing $2k, namely the $2k somebody else will very likely take instead, and you get nothing. The overwhelmingly likelihood somebody will take $5k and you get nothing, and too overwhelmingly likely much past that to even think about on any rational basis. If someone settles for a lesser amount, then I gain nothing, but I also _lose_ nothing. If I, or someone else, settles for a lesser amount, then I/they gain that lesser amount at the expense of having potentially gained more. Therefore there’s no reason for me to settle for less money than I can live off of for the rest of my life, nor is there for anyone else. I have better odds of hitting the jackpot than I do playing the lottery, and lose nothing if I don’t. That’s a better deal than any game in Vegas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=37)