# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/821 "2017-04-12T15:37:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think you know how time works. I’m sure I do, but excuse me if I ignore your comment. Because I damn sure know how **money** works, and I know that _vouchers_ often don’t work anywhere near the same. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/822 "2017-04-12T15:38:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The lines are long and timing is a factor- At what point do you hold this auction, what is the maximum amount of time that should be allowed, and what do you do after that period has ended? Keep in mind that the flight in question was delayed over two hours. Spending even 30 minutes on the auction would’ve been totally worth it. Just do it right from the get-go and you minimize the time taken dramatically. Sure if you roll out with “_a $100 voucher … no takers … OK, a $150 voucher … anyone, anyone? … Beuller? …_” – yeah, that would take all day. But is the airline motivated to get those seats or not? If so – really and truly so – time will be no issue. Bust out with a grand in cash to start ($1000 _sounds_ 10 times better than even $900). And try to calibrate with the level of imposition you’re asking the passengers to accept. Asking people to get on a flight 2 hours later? Maybe start with $200, $400 or so. Asking people to stay overnight? Start in the low four figures, hoping to get lucky, but be aware that you may have to push five to ten grand. … Or else ditch all that and use Delta’s existing reverse auction scheme, where flyers indicate their price to deboard upfront when they book. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/823 "2017-04-12T15:38:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The lines are long and timing is a factor-At what point do you hold this auction, what is the maximum amount of time that should be allowed, and what do you do after that period has ended? No need for a max amount (not sure if you’re still on that), no plausible reasoning given by you, let alone the much more out there thinking of Smapti, the number would ever be large relative daily incomes, hotels ticket prices, etc. Which also discounts the chances the auction would be very long slowly stepping up to some high number, it never would. And this incident delayed the flight over two hours, no matter whose ‘fault’. The extra time to go from $800 (funny money voucher) no takers to virtual certain takers in the $1k-$2k (real money) range is not material relative to that. The airline can decide how to optimize whether lift it in smaller or larger increments to save time but sub optimize slightly, say in case $1k doesn’t do it, they up it to $1.5k and it does, but $1.2k would also have worked but they skipped over it. Beyond that it’s ‘what if’ stuff with no plausible reason to think the probability is material enough to worry about. What if the plane crashes despite all best efforts? But that’s a one in a million (at the least) and we don’t spend a lot of time worrying about it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/824 "2017-04-12T15:40:30Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Too late – United has already publicly stated otherwise. IMHO, this gets into the whole “You can do it, you have the right to do it, but _should_ you do it?” concept. When two ethical systems conflict, you do “nothing wrong” and still do something incredibly wrong. United had to put out a statement, obviously, as did the security company. They’ve got PR people who handle these things. I know, how about a bunch of people who know little if anything about operating an airline attempt to re-write all the rules of acceptability? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/825 "2017-04-12T15:41:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The lines are long and timing is a factor-At what point do you hold this auction, what is the maximum amount of time that should be allowed, and what do you do after that period has ended? How long do you really think it’ll take? Anyone give up their seat for $400? No? $600? No? $800? No? $1000? No? $1200? You there, you’ll give up your seat for $1200? Thank you, your cash, new ticket, and hotel voucher will be waiting for you at the gate. Could be done in less than 3 minutes. Less time than it takes to convince even just a somewhat reluctant passenger to be involuntarily bumped, and far less time than if the passenger refuses. How long was that plane delayed, 2 1/2 hours? Do you really think that was a great use of time? As earlier stated, it’s not very likely that the cash to give up your seat is going to get to anything astronomical, because I will take it before it gets there, and as such, it’s not going to take all that many rounds of bidding either. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/826 "2017-04-12T15:41:38Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I have to wonder how awkward the flight was when the four dead-heading crewmembers boarded and sat in the vacated seats. Five hours of dirty looks from everyone else in the cabin… Yeah, there were probably enough people ignorant enough to transfer anger to a group of people who went where they were told to go and had nothing to do with what did or didn’t happen to a passenger. _That’ll_ show them! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/827 "2017-04-12T15:41:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And I laugh at them, and their dreams of $11,000, as I walk off the plane with my _actual_ $2000. Exactly. Why is this even being debated? Knowing the maximum the airline will offer you is fairly useless info. The info you need to know is the lowest offer _every single other passenger_ will take, so you can undercut them (should you choose to do so). There is only one “winner” in this auction, and to be the “winner,” you have to be the first person to bid lower than everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/828 "2017-04-12T15:42:23Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > How’s this for a reasonable law tweaking the process: > > The airlines can no longer offer vouchers, but would be legally obligated to offer cash (or functional equivalent, e.g. debit card) in exchange for leaving a flight? Frequent flyers know highly-restricted vouchers are kind of a bad deal. Cash would be a much greater incentive. Yeah, that would be a lot simpler. No involuntary bumping, and incentives have to be cash (and a hotel room in the case of overnight delays). ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/829 "2017-04-12T15:43:04Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I know, how about a bunch of people who know little if anything about operating an airline attempt to re-write all the rules of acceptability? and we shall call them Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/830 "2017-04-12T15:45:18Z")
Not that it’s an excuse for how United handled Dr. Dao’s “re-accomodation”\*, but the good doctor is probably not going to be confused with Marcus Welby. \*"It took virtually no time for his hometown paper, the Courier-Journal, to point out that Dao, a father of five and grandfather who went to medical school in Vietnam, had his medical license suspended for about 10 years for illegally prescribing painkillers, including to a patient in exchange for sex. It’s all a matter of public record. TMZ reported that while his medical license was suspended, Dao “made a killing” as a World Series of Poker player, earning a total of $234,664. There is no getting around Dao’s history now that it is public, but the reports raised the ire of many on social media who argued that Dao’s background wasn’t known and shouldn’t have been relevant to his treatment on the plane, and that it appeared to be another case of blaming the victim."\* [http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/United-passenger-doctor-troubled-past-debate.html](http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/United-passenger-doctor-troubled-past-debate.html) \*might have an impact on the outcome of any lawsuit though. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/831 "2017-04-12T15:47:35Z")
Guy looks pretty good for 69. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/832 "2017-04-12T15:49:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not that it’s an excuse for how United handled Dr. Dao’s “re-accomodation”\*, but the good doctor is probably not going to be confused with Marcus Welby. > > \*"It took virtually no time for his hometown paper, the Courier-Journal, to point out that Dao, a father of five and grandfather who went to medical school in Vietnam, had his medical license suspended for about 10 years for illegally prescribing painkillers, including to a patient in exchange for sex. It’s all a matter of public record. > > TMZ reported that while his medical license was suspended, Dao “made a killing” as a World Series of Poker player, earning a total of $234,664. > > There is no getting around Dao’s history now that it is public, but the reports raised the ire of many on social media who argued that Dao’s background wasn’t known and shouldn’t have been relevant to his treatment on the plane, and that it appeared to be another case of blaming the victim."\* > [Rob Tornoe](http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/United-passenger-doctor-troubled-past-debate.html) > > \*might have an impact on the outcome of any lawsuit though. It certainly matters to the “He had patients he had to see” argument…but apparently not to those who are making it still. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/833 "2017-04-12T15:50:52Z")
From the [flyertalk.com](http://flyertalk.com) stuff that **bordelond** spoilered in post #812 (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > • On 4/9, Flight UA4600 from DEN to Louisville was delayed 130 minutes, arriving at 12:31 AM Monday instead of **10:21 PM Sunday** , having left at 8:04 PM instead of 5:40 PM. This was on an Embraer 145 aircraft with registration N14153 and operated by Trans States Airlines. > > • That would mean that the UA4600 crew would not be allowed to show up for their next flight before 10:31 AM Monday, so probably not allowed to fly before 11:30 AM or so considering the mandatory rest time as well as the flight planning and preparation time in advance of departure. > > • On Monday 4/10 there were UA flights scheduled out of Louisville on Embraer 145 aircraft at 6:05 AM, 7:30 AM, 9:20 AM, 2:45 PM and 3:45 PM Eastern. All operated by Trans States Airlines. > > • Most likely the crew of UA4600 on Sunday was scheduled to operate the 9:20 AM flight on Monday, because even with their delay they would have been allowed to operate the later ones, and if they had been on schedule they would not have been allowed to operate the earlier ones. > > • For a crew to operate the 9:20 AM flight on Monday they would have had to be in Louisville at **10:20 PM** or so. IF this guy has it right, the airline had _no margin of error at all_ on getting the crew from Denver to Louisville in time to have their mandated rest before their flight out of Louisville the following morning. In which case that would be the underlying problem, since it would have only taken a mild delay to make them ineligible to fly the 9:20am flight from Louisville. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/834 "2017-04-12T15:53:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not that it’s an excuse for how United handled Dr. Dao’s “re-accomodation”\*, but the good doctor is probably not going to be confused with Marcus Welby. > > \*"It took virtually no time for his hometown paper, the Courier-Journal, to point out that Dao, a father of five and grandfather who went to medical school in Vietnam, had his medical license suspended for about 10 years for illegally prescribing painkillers, including to a patient in exchange for sex. It’s all a matter of public record. That link wouldn’t respond for me, but as of yesterday some were pointing out the original Sino-Vietnamese given name of the guy convicted for the drug charges wasn’t the same as the guy as on the plane. Maybe it was still him, does your link deal with that issue specifically? Anyway I agree it’s completely irrelevant to UAL’s stupidity, could theoretically affect a jury though and that might feed back to some degree to the big out of court settlement he’s going to get. And BTW if you’re running a business and have to pay a big settlement with lots of negative PR, you f\*cked up, period. ‘But we were right’ is only relevant to the personal vanity of private business owners kidding themselves that that makes any difference business wise which it doesn’t, and it’s more clearly and totally irrelevant for publicly traded companies. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/835 "2017-04-12T15:53:58Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > United had to put out a statement, obviously, as did the security company. They’ve got PR people who handle these things. > > I know, how about a bunch of people who know little if anything about operating an airline attempt to re-write all the rules of acceptability? Knowing all about how human beings should and should not be treated in this situation trumps having deep expertise in how the airline industry works. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/836 "2017-04-12T15:55:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > From the [flyertalk.com](http://flyertalk.com) stuff that **bordelond** spoilered in post #812 (bolding mine): > IF this guy has it right, the airline had _no margin of error at all_ on getting the crew from Denver to Louisville in time to have their mandated rest before their flight out of Louisville the following morning. In which case that would be the underlying problem, since it would have only taken a mild delay to make them ineligible to fly the 9:20am flight from Louisville. What are the penalties for violating mandatory rest times for crew? I ask becuase I don’t know, and it’s not something that I am finding easily. Is it something ridiculous, like millions of dollars for every minute violation, or is it a couple hundred, or maybe a few thousand dollars for the violation? If the former, then obviously, the airline is not going to violate it, but in the latter case, it could just be a cost of doing business. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/837 "2017-04-12T15:57:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > acting like a petulant child > [@Czarcasm](#): > > So you are upset that the law was called instead of submitting to blackmail? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > the passenger involved was screaming > [@Czarcasm](#): > > raise a stink in public. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > a single customer who reneges on a contract. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > a temper tantrum > [@Czarcasm](#): > > screaming and yelling. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > an unruly passenger who has disobeyed a captain’s direct command > [@Czarcasm](#): > > a fit thrown by a passenger. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > screaming passenger that was breaking the law? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > histrionic > [@Czarcasm](#): > > someone that was [del]playing possum[/del] supposedly knocked unconscious Man, you really hate this guy. Did he cut you off in traffic or something? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/838 "2017-04-12T15:59:09Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not that it’s an excuse for how United handled Dr. Dao’s “re-accomodation”\*, but the good doctor is probably not going to be confused with Marcus Welby. > > \*"It took virtually no time for his hometown paper, the Courier-Journal, to point out that Dao, a father of five and grandfather who went to medical school in Vietnam, had his medical license suspended for about 10 years for illegally prescribing painkillers, including to a patient in exchange for sex. It’s all a matter of public record. > > TMZ reported that while his medical license was suspended, Dao “made a killing” as a World Series of Poker player, earning a total of $234,664. > > There is no getting around Dao’s history now that it is public, but the reports raised the ire of many on social media who argued that Dao’s background wasn’t known and shouldn’t have been relevant to his treatment on the plane, and that it appeared to be another case of blaming the victim."\* > > [Rob Tornoe](http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/United-passenger-doctor-troubled-past-debate.html) > > \*might have an impact on the outcome of any lawsuit though. I almost missed my favorite part of the story: > [@](#): > > …he was recovering in a Chicago hospital after “everything" was injured. Dao told the station he was not doing well. “Everything” was injured? Let the lawyer do the talking, buddy, because exaggerations like that from a doctor just won’t fly in court. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/839 "2017-04-12T16:00:37Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Man, you really hate this guy. Did he cut you off in traffic or something? 😉 Transferring anger or something? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/840 "2017-04-12T16:02:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It certainly matters to the “He had patients he had to see” argument…but apparently not to those who are making it still. This allegation has been brought up repeatedly in this thread, but last time I checked, it wasn’t settled whether Dr. David Dao, the would-be passenger, was the same person as this Dr. David Dao who had his medical license suspended. Have these doubts been resolved? (Not sure whose argument is still dependent on whether he had patients to see, but if you say so, I’ll take your word that someone’s still making such an argument.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=43)