# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/841 "2017-04-12T16:02:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What are the penalties for violating mandatory rest times for crew? I ask becuase I don’t know, and it’s not something that I am finding easily. > > Is it something ridiculous, like millions of dollars for every minute violation, or is it a couple hundred, or maybe a few thousand dollars for the violation? > > If the former, then obviously, the airline is not going to violate it, but in the latter case, it could just be a cost of doing business. Screw the contract between the customer and the company, and screw the contract between the unions and the company, right? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/842 "2017-04-12T16:06:55Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The flight is 1h 15m (well, 50m really but with taxiing etc…) Sorry, confused it with the drive time. [sub]But I bet it _felt_ like five hours to those four deadheaders…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/843 "2017-04-12T16:07:50Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Man, you really hate this guy. Did he cut you off in traffic or something? 😉 +1 ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/844 "2017-04-12T16:19:20Z")
[Another flyertalk post](http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28155386-post447.html) about what to do if you’re asked to involuntarily deboard a flight. The poster admits that this doesn’t work 100% of the time, but asserts that it has allowed him to stay on flights after being asked to deboard: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Can you share what we are supposed to quote in order to keep our seat? I think we will all need that one day. > > Know the rules and the pain points for the particular airline. > > 1. Know your segment cost > 2. Have some idea of other airlines’ options - remember, airlines HATE paying another airline to fly you somewhere. > 3. Airlines also hate to issue checks. > > * * * > > Here’s my standard spiel when I get yanked. Always said nicely, but… > > 1. I wait for the airline person to speak first. In the case of AA, it was “We’re so sorry Mr Lazybrook, here’s a check for a thousand bucks, a voucher for a hotel and a confirmed first class ticket on the next flight out.” On many airlines its just…“congrats you get a voucher for 200 bucks”. At that point I tell them…that’s not how this is going to work and then… > > Nicely (which is hard because you’re talking most likely to the person who screwed you - and who just tried to rip you off), say "ok, you’ve IVDBed me, lets figure this out. I’m going to ask a few specific questions, and write down your responses and your name, as I want to ensure that any and all procedures and regulations are complied with this matter. I didn’t volunteer and I expect to be in destination XX at this time and date. Please understand that. " > > 1. If in the USA, “please provide me with the written IDB guidelines, as required by the DOT”. If they don’t have them immediately available, tell them, “I’m sorry you don’t have those available at this time. Lets confirm that you don’t have the document available in a timely manner”. I also ask for a written explanation of exactly why I was chosen to be IVDBed. I also ask them to hold (not give to me) a list of the passenger manifest so that in the event that non-FLIGHT essential non-revs flew on the flight, that the information can be retrieved later by the investigators, if needed. > > This is the point when Air Canada’s US contract employees figured out how to put me on my original flight. > > 1. Inform them that compensation is due within 24 hours, if they choose to not ship me on my original flight or make alternate arrangements to get me to my destination in a timely manner. I may, or may not accept said compensation, depending upon the disruption involved. Politely, but firmly explain to them that unless the voucher is of a truly extraordinary nature, that they will be paying cash. > > This is the point when Southwest pulled the flight back from the taxiway to take someone off and put me on it. > > 1. The airline is still obligated to get me to my destination. Remind them that there are other carriers that they can pay to put me on. > > 2. Explain to them, nicely, that any and all deviations from DOT/FAA regs will result in regulatory compliance investigation requests. > > On CO, none of this worked. > > * * * > > Sometimes, you’re on a stupid regional jet with less protection. In those cases, it can be a problem to get anything. But…you can still let them know that a FAA complaint will be filed, along with a request for regulation. … I am curious, **Czarcasm** and **Leaffan** : do you think it’s kind of dirty pool for a passenger to calmy and reasonably assert their rights and turn stickler upon being asked to deboard? The guy doing the things described above … is he kind of a jerk (or worse) in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/845 "2017-04-12T16:22:05Z")
I asked this before but it never got answered: You guys keep arguing that the passenger should have accepted deboarding and followed up in the courts. Why doesn’t that apply to the airline? When he refused to move (violated his contract), why was it appropriate for them to use physical force, but not him? Why shouldn’t they have left him there, selected someone else, and then sued him in court, after? That would have sucked for the other person (who could also have sued him, I imagine), but I don’t understand why violence is an acceptable tool for one party in the dispute, but not the other. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/846 "2017-04-12T16:29:10Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I asked this before but it never got answered: > > You guys keep arguing that the passenger should have accepted deboarding and followed up in the courts. Why doesn’t that apply to the airline? It’s hard for an airline to deboard itself. > [@MandaJo](#): > > When he refused to move (violated his contract), why was it appropriate for them to use physical force, but not him? Why shouldn’t they have left him there, selected someone else, and then sued him in court, after? Define “they” and “them”. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/847 "2017-04-12T16:29:20Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I asked this before but it never got answered: > > You guys keep arguing that the passenger should have accepted deboarding and followed up in the courts. Why doesn’t that apply to the airline? When he refused to move (violated his contract), why was it appropriate for them to use physical force, but not him? Why shouldn’t they have left him there, selected someone else, and then sued him in court, after? > > That would have sucked for the other person (who could also have sued him, I imagine), but I don’t understand why violence is an acceptable tool for one party in the dispute, but not the other. Because post 9/11 all airline passengers are treated as suspected terrorists. They take advantage of the genuine need to maintain control of the cabin in security situations to have anyone who protests or disobeys the airline’s terrible treatment of passengers physically dragged off the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/848 "2017-04-12T16:32:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What are the penalties for violating mandatory rest times for crew? I ask becuase I don’t know, and it’s not something that I am finding easily. > > Is it something ridiculous, like millions of dollars for every minute violation, or is it a couple hundred, or maybe a few thousand dollars for the violation? > > If the former, then obviously, the airline is not going to violate it, but in the latter case, it could just be a cost of doing business. Well, there’s also the problem that tired crew are more likely to make mistakes and crash the airplane… Most of the time that doesn’t happen, of course, but when it does happen it’s a LOT of money between the cost of the airplane, compensation to crew heirs, passengers’ families… > [@RTFirefly](#): > > This allegation has been brought up repeatedly in this thread, but last time I checked, it wasn’t settled whether Dr. David Dao, the would-be passenger, was the same person as this Dr. David Dao who had his medical license suspended. Have these doubts been resolved? > > (Not sure whose argument is still dependent on whether he had patients to see, but if you say so, I’ll take your word that someone’s still making such an argument.) Even if the David Dao dragged from the airplane is the one who had their licensed suspended, exchanged prescriptions for sex, played professional poker, etc. it’s irrelevant because that particular Dr. Dao did in fact have his license reinstated and is seeing patients again. So “I have patients to see” could be just as truthful for him as for any other practicing Dr. Dao. Beyond that - it doesn’t matter, because his past wasn’t why he was chosen to be roughed up and literally dragged off an airplane. That’s not acceptable regardless of whether the victim has a shady past or is a saint. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/849 "2017-04-12T16:33:19Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > It’s hard for an airline to deboard itself. They could wait until he willingly deboarded–at the destination. > [@](#): > > Define “they” and “them”. The airline. They could have sued him for whatever damages his refusal to obey caused them. And, obviously, banned him for life. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/850 "2017-04-12T16:35:22Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I asked this before but it never got answered: > > You guys keep arguing that the passenger should have accepted deboarding and followed up in the courts. Why doesn’t that apply to the airline? When he refused to move (violated his contract), why was it appropriate for them to use physical force, but not him? Why shouldn’t they have left him there, selected someone else, and then sued him in court, after? > > That would have sucked for the other person (who could also have sued him, I imagine), but I don’t understand why violence is an acceptable tool for one party in the dispute, but not the other. Remember-it wasn’t the airline that instituted force in this case. It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/851 "2017-04-12T16:39:19Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > They could wait until he willingly deboarded–at the destination. > The airline. They could have sued him for whatever damages his refusal to obey caused them. And, obviously, banned him for life. At which point his lawyer says “They must have not been too concerned since they let him fly to his destination-why are you harassing him after the fact?” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/852 "2017-04-12T16:41:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember-it wasn’t the airline that instituted force in this case. It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.” Assuming that’s what they said, would you agree that the officer should have said “this is a civil, not a criminal, matter and you’ll have to resolve this through the courts”? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/853 "2017-04-12T16:43:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Screw the contract between the customer and the company, and screw the contract between the unions and the company, right? First, I was asking a question about the nature of the contract, so your vehemence is absolutely unnecessary, and second, not screw the contract, specifically pay out the penalties delineated in the contract for violating it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/854 "2017-04-12T16:43:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Transferring anger or something? One thing that is very clear is that the customer was NOT belligerent at all despite the claims that he was. > **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/855 "2017-04-12T16:44:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At which point his lawyer says “They must have not been too concerned since they let him fly to his destination-why are you harassing him after the fact?” What? So, like, if someone hits my car and tries to leave without giving me insurance information, am I obliged to physically restrain him, lest his lawyer later argue that I apparently didn’t care enough to tackle him at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/856 "2017-04-12T16:44:42Z")
And obviously, inevitably, it’s Trump’s fault. [‘Star Trek’ actor blames Trump for United passenger being dragged away](http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/11/star-trek-actor-blames-trump-for-united-passenger-being-dragged-away/) This would never have happened if Hillary were in office. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/857 "2017-04-12T16:45:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember-it wasn’t the airline that instituted force in this case. It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.” Ahh, we’re supposed to remember this from the recorded/transcribed conversation between the flight crew and law enforcement officers? Or, perhaps, you’re a psychic? Or is it something else? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/858 "2017-04-12T16:46:35Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > One thing that is very clear is that the customer was NOT belligerent at all despite the claims that he was. > [ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707) I think he was bone-chillingly terrified for his life. That seems like the best explanation for his behavior, anyway (including that blood curdling scream). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/859 "2017-04-12T16:48:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember-it wasn’t the airline that instituted force in this case. It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.” That’s a spurious distinction. By bringing the cops on, they were choosing to use force against a customer. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/860 "2017-04-12T16:49:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember-it wasn’t the airline that instituted force in this case. It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.” But the police only got involved because the air crew requested assistance. Had they been able to resolve this peacefully (say by asking another passenger to disembark), the police would not have been involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=44)