# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/861 "2017-04-12T16:51:27Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I asked this before but it never got answered: > > You guys keep arguing that the passenger should have accepted deboarding and followed up in the courts. Why doesn’t that apply to the airline? When he refused to move (violated his contract), why was it appropriate for them to use physical force, but not him? Why shouldn’t they have left him there, selected someone else, and then sued him in court, after? As a legal matter the airline might have the advantage because of the contract, and because it’s their plane. The former is not clear though, and it seems those here originally jumping the gun saying UAL’s legal position is unassailable have walked that back or faded out of the discussion, because it’s actually not clear. The latter, their plane, though would still probably weigh in their favor all else equal. But as a practical matter sure, simply backing down when a squeaky wheel squeaks enough is a potentially viable commercial option. It’s ‘unmanly’ to some, and some seem to feel this is how corporate entities must work. It’s a very non-commercial view of the world, but as thread shows a lot of people are completely non-commercial in outlook, albeit willing to apply that view to vociferous argument about fundamentally commercial matters, strangely. It also seems now more agreed that ‘lives are at stake’ is a smokescreen in a case like this, a pretext which practically will be used, as opposed to an actually valid justification. So yeah, depending the details of the dead heading screw up, or assuming otherwise that wasn’t the case, the airline could just back down and say fine, be that way, to somebody who refused to leave and the world wouldn’t stop turning. Probably few people would even know. 'But it’s the _principal!_ no, not in running a commercial entity if you’re not breaking the law yourself. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/862 "2017-04-12T17:07:57Z")
[United deplaned (after booking and boarding) a first-class passenger after threatening to call security](http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/04/11/another-passenger-complains-of-alleged-mistreatment-by-united-airlines/). The passenger, investment banker Geoff Fearns, is now coming forward with his story. This happened “earlier this month”, so within the last two weeks. … For better or worse, for right or wrong … similar stories will keep coming out and United is going to be known as “_the airline deplanes people a lot, and sics security on you, to boot!_” Stats and facts won’t matter. Humans think in shorthand. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/863 "2017-04-12T17:19:19Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [United deplaned (after booking and boarding) a first-class passenger after threatening to call security](http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/04/11/another-passenger-complains-of-alleged-mistreatment-by-united-airlines/). The passenger, investment banker Geoff Fearns, is now coming forward with his story. > > This happened “earlier this month”, so within the last two weeks. > > … > > For better or worse, for right or wrong … similar stories will keep coming out and United is going to be known as “_the airline deplanes people a lot, and sics security on you, to boot!_” Stats and facts won’t matter. Humans think in shorthand. Wonder what happened… Surely they don’t overbook first class? ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/864 "2017-04-12T17:22:59Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [United deplaned (after booking and boarding) a first-class passenger after threatening to call security](http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/04/11/another-passenger-complains-of-alleged-mistreatment-by-united-airlines/). The passenger, investment banker Geoff Fearns, is now coming forward with his story. > > This happened “earlier this month”, so within the last two weeks. > > … > > For better or worse, for right or wrong … similar stories will keep coming out and United is going to be known as “_the airline deplanes people a lot, and sics security on you, to boot!_” Stats and facts won’t matter. Humans think in shorthand. Kind of. He was moved to economy class, refunded the difference in ticket, and given a $500 voucher. ETA: OK. it says he declined the voucher and is considering legal action. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/865 "2017-04-12T17:23:11Z")
And that guy was eventually put in an economy-class seat on the same flight. Perhaps a higher-status first class passenger got his seat and someone in economy was denied a seat? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/866 "2017-04-12T17:24:10Z")
[Chris Christie weighs in](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/12/christie-tees-off-on-awful-united-airlines-in-wake-uproar.html) (no pun intended): > [@](#): > > Christie said it is a particular problem in his state, where 70 percent of flights at Newark International Airport are by United Airlines. > > … > > Christie sent a letter Tuesday to Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao, saying that his state is looking into action to prevent what he called the “abusive practice” of overbooking, and requested that the administration suspend airlines’ ability to overbook. > > “We would ask, in the context of the president’s efforts at regulatory reform to improve the lives of our citizens, that you consider the immediate suspension of this overbooking authority until a thorough review can be done by your department,” Christie wrote. Doubt it goes anywhere … but in the meantime, I got some popcorn popping. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/867 "2017-04-12T17:26:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Transferring anger or something? At a complete loss to understand this response. Do I seem angry to you? Perhaps you think I’m throwing a temper tantrum. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/868 "2017-04-12T17:27:43Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And that guy was eventually put in an economy-class seat on the same flight. Perhaps a higher-status first class passenger got his seat and someone in economy was denied a seat? The plane was changed due to a mechanical issue and the replacement plane had less first class seats. I think a lot of the tension around this is also created by the marketing team at UA. Some other airlines will bump for a late passenger with higher “points” once people have boarded. The fact that UA will is insane, if they just dealt with this at the gate in this case it wouldn’t be nearly as big of an issue. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/869 "2017-04-12T17:27:55Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > And obviously, inevitably, it’s Trump’s fault. > > [‘Star Trek’ actor blames Trump for United passenger being dragged away](http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/11/star-trek-actor-blames-trump-for-united-passenger-being-dragged-away/) > > This would never have happened if Hillary were in office. Huh. Before I clicked the link, I thought “George Takei.” Wrong Sulu. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/870 "2017-04-12T17:31:42Z")
Thought this was an interesting read about two companies under fire for, fundamentally, rendering their customer-facing employees especially powerless to promote good customer service: [At United Airlines and Wells Fargo, toxic corporate culture starts with the CEO](http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-toxic-united-wells-20170411-story.html) (_LA Times_) > [@](#): > > What these companies have in common is the status of the employees at the center of their crises: It’s low. Patrick Smith, the air travel expert who helms the Ask the Pilot website, attributes the United incident to the gate staff’s “lack of empowerment.” That term also could describe the beleaguered Wells Fargo salespersons who opened thousands of fake accounts in customers’ names to meet crushing sales quotas. > > … > > The [Wells Fargo] salespersons met the very definition of powerlessness; failure to meet quotas meant dismissal, and there was no path for complaints or respite from the demands. The numbers were everything, and no one looked too closely at how they were reached. > > … > > Munoz’s reaction also glossed over what may be real constraints on United employees’ ability to manage workaday glitches. At the United gate in Chicago, Smith conjectures, “the airline’s staff reached a point, after perhaps offering whatever dollar amounts their procedures called for, where they simply didn’t know what to do, and nobody was brave enough, or resourceful enough, to come up with something. Summoning the police simply became the easiest way to pass the buck.” > > That’s typical of the culture of big airlines, Smith adds. “Everything is scripted and rote and procedural … Workers are deterred from thinking creatively exactly when they need to.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/871 "2017-04-12T17:31:44Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [Chris Christie weighs in](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/12/christie-tees-off-on-awful-united-airlines-in-wake-uproar.html) (no pun intended): > > Doubt it goes anywhere … but in the meantime, I got some popcorn popping. That’s a pretty terrible idea. I am all for the airlines being responsible about overbooking, and about compensating passengers fairly if they are bumped from an overbooked flight, but prohibiting the practice would, as many have pointed out, increase airfare, and/or make it so that if you miss your flight, you have to pay full price for a new ticket. Then there is the fact that this plane wasn’t actually “overbooked” with passengers, it was just a matter of needing to transfer employees at the last minute, so even if overbooking were suspended, it would not have prevented this incident. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/872 "2017-04-12T17:32:36Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > And obviously, inevitably, it’s Trump’s fault. > > [‘Star Trek’ actor blames Trump for United passenger being dragged away](http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/11/star-trek-actor-blames-trump-for-united-passenger-being-dragged-away/) > > This would never have happened if Hillary were in office. Tensions would have been much lower. I don’t know if you noticed that immigration agents asked detainees to sign away their residency status and dozens of legal immigrants were detained for no reason recently. It is quite likely that the doctor was very concerned, you know being an immigrant and all. He was reacting like someone in fear particularly when he re-boarded. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/873 "2017-04-12T17:39:45Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [Another flyertalk post](http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28155386-post447.html) about what to do if you’re asked to involuntarily deboard a flight. The poster admits that this doesn’t work 100% of the time, but asserts that it has allowed him to stay on flights after being asked to deboard: > > … > > I am curious, **Czarcasm** and **Leaffan** : do you think it’s kind of dirty pool for a passenger to calmy and reasonably assert their rights and turn stickler upon being asked to deboard? The guy doing the things described above … is he kind of a jerk (or worse) in your opinion? I think he’s kind of a jerk, but is doing so in an adult manner. He also says that it may or may not work all the time. In situations where it doesn’t work I bet he gets off the plane and deals with it then. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/874 "2017-04-12T17:44:44Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > On this board? Hahahahahahahaha. > > Quoting the relevant sentences.It’s trivial to attempt to ridicule others on a message board, however, people like you who assume that they can ignore what the courts think do so at their peril. > > The question not what _you_ believe is proper compensation, but what the courts will rule it is. The courts don’t give a shit what you feel is proper. They care about contracts, contract law, laws, and Federal regulations. > > You may believe that an $800 voucher is proper, but the FAA doesn’t. See my earlier post. It’s $1,350 in _cash_ if that is what the bumped passenger wants. There’s a world of difference there. So you don’t actually know what’s going on? The mandatory $1,350 is for involuntary bumping, and only if the airfare is above a certain amount–and literally _no one_ is claiming that those who were removed _involuntarily_ did not receive that. The $800 voucher offer was made to find volunteers–and there are essentially no regulations on what can be offered as compensation for voluntary denied boarding, because it’s voluntary and the DOT figures you’re an adult who can negotiate for yourself what’s acceptable in that case. You really shouldn’t act so cocksure of yourself when you don’t know what you’re talking about. Try paying better attention next time. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/875 "2017-04-12T17:46:16Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Where specifically did you read that they attempted to circumvent the obligation to compensate this guy? I haven’t heard that anywhere else. They didn’t. They just failed to understand the regulations, and failed to distinguish between what was offered to volunteers vs. what was given to those who were denied involuntarily. In short: they don’t know what they’re talking about, at all. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/876 "2017-04-12T17:48:32Z")
So … I’ve seen posted a few times over the last two pages that in the end, Dr. Dao did in fact take that very same flight to Louisville. If I understand right, after the now-famous drag-off, he snuck back on the plane, was removed a second time … and THEN after all that, was allowed on the flight after all. Is that accurate? If so, where did we learn this? Maybe on a telecast? And if true, are any details known? Did someone else voluntarily leave the flight? Was there a miscount and they actually did have enough seats? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/877 "2017-04-12T17:50:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What are the penalties for violating mandatory rest times for crew? I ask becuase I don’t know, and it’s not something that I am finding easily. > > Is it something ridiculous, like millions of dollars for every minute violation, or is it a couple hundred, or maybe a few thousand dollars for the violation? > > If the former, then obviously, the airline is not going to violate it, but in the latter case, it could just be a cost of doing business. Except any crew worth their salt would say “Fuck no” and between union contracts and the fact that there’s not a whole lot they can do to a crew that refuses to violate the law (especially a safety-related one) and get away with it, it wouldn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/878 "2017-04-12T17:51:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Screw the contract between the customer and the company, and screw the contract between the unions and the company, right? Hell, screw safety. After all, modern air travel’s incredible safety record just appeared out of thin air–a strictly-enforced regulatory environment and safety culture have _nothing at all_ to do with it, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/879 "2017-04-12T17:52:34Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Hell, screw safety. > > After all, modern air travel’s incredible safety record just appeared out of thin air–a strictly-enforced regulatory environment and safety culture have _nothing at all_ to do with it, right? United is just ahead of the curve. Think of how safe flying would be if they removed _all_ passengers! ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/880 "2017-04-12T17:54:22Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Except any crew worth their salt would say “Fuck no” and between union contracts and the fact that there’s not a whole lot they can do to a crew that refuses to violate the law (especially a safety-related one) and get away with it, it wouldn’t happen. Didn’t the flight crew arrive two minutes late in Louisville to make their union-mandated pre-flight rest time? AIUI, they needed to be in Louisville for 10:00 p.m., and the flight arrived at 10:02 p.m. Then again, delaying the crew’s Monday morning flight a few minutes neatly solves that problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=45)