# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/881 "2017-04-12T17:55:07Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Except any crew worth their salt would say “Fuck no” and between union contracts and the fact that there’s not a whole lot they can do to a crew that refuses to violate the law (especially a safety-related one) and get away with it, it wouldn’t happen. That’s a very odd answer to a question. I don’t know what the penalties are for violating this clause, that’s why I asked. I take it you don’t know the answer either. Just as united can offer passenger’s money for being unseated, they could offer the crew money for working extra hours, as well as paying out to settle any fines. This is in response to those in the thread who think that the airline will pay out an infinite amount of money for their seat, if they just hold out for more. My point in this is that the airline has other options, and I was simply asking how viable one of them would be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/882 "2017-04-12T17:58:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > United is just ahead of the curve. Think of how safe flying would be if they removed _all_ passengers! That has been suggested by absolutely no one, whereas “Just break the contract and pay the fine-no big deal” _has_ been brought forward as an viable option. Do try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/883 "2017-04-12T18:01:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s a very odd answer to a question. > > I don’t know what the penalties are for violating this clause, that’s why I asked. > > I take it you don’t know the answer either. > > Just as united can offer passenger’s money for being unseated, they could offer the crew money for working extra hours, as well as paying out to settle any fines. > > This is in response to those in the thread who think that the airline will pay out an infinite amount of money for their seat, if they just hold out for more. > > My point in this is that the airline has other options, and I was simply asking what one of them would be. Signing a union contract doesn’t mean you can break it whenever you want if you’ve got the cash not matter what the cost is. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/884 "2017-04-12T18:01:32Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > So … I’ve seen posted a few times over the last two pages that in the end, Dr. Dao did in fact take that very same flight to Louisville. If I understand right, after the now-famous drag-off, he snuck back on the plane, was removed a second time … and THEN after all that, was allowed on the flight after all. > > Is that accurate? If so, where did we learn this? Maybe on a telecast? > > And if true, are any details known? Did someone else voluntarily leave the flight? Was there a miscount and they actually did have enough seats? Something else? The last report I saw yesterday said that he was in a Chicago hospital. If that’s true, I think it’s unlikely that he reboarded and took the flight. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/885 "2017-04-12T18:02:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s a pretty terrible idea. > > I am all for the airlines being responsible about overbooking, and about compensating passengers fairly if they are bumped from an overbooked flight, but prohibiting the practice would, as many have pointed out, increase airfare, and/or make it so that if you miss your flight, you have to pay full price for a new ticket. > > Then there is the fact that this plane wasn’t actually “overbooked” with passengers, it was just a matter of needing to transfer employees at the last minute, so even if overbooking were suspended, it would not have prevented this incident. I totally agree. Again nobody has come up with plausible reasoning why this problem, whether actually overbooked or employees need to fly, would not be overcome in an extremely high % of cases by simply continuing the auction until the price reaches a level where enough people volunteer to get off. The only govt action I can see is 1) removing any reference in regs to any absolute $ limit (though it’s not a mandatory limit even now) and 2) require it to be cash for purposes of transparency. But neither of those is even absolutely necessary. Even UAL, with its obviously toxic culture, it is indeed a terrible airline, is probably going to just do this, at least part 1). The overconcentration of the industry, as in UAL’s too large dominance at Newark (though more like 50’s% per some other sources) is a different problem. The govt overreacted in allowing too many airline mergers after a period of unprofitability and that can only be undone the hard way, by forcing divestitures now. Trying to re-regulate every aspect of their behavior will not fix it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/886 "2017-04-12T18:04:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That has been suggested by absolutely no one, whereas “Just break the contract and pay the fine-no big deal” _has_ been brought forward as an viable option. > Do try to keep up. You mean my sarcastic suggestion that was meant entirely as a joke wasn’t suggested seriously by anyone else? Shocking! By the way, I’m still curious about your possible psychic powers (or other abilities) that have enabled you to determine the exact nature of the conversation between the flight crew and law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/887 "2017-04-12T18:04:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The last report I saw yesterday said that he was in a Chicago hospital. If that’s true, I think it’s unlikely that he reboarded and took the flight. Gah … you are right. The bouncing ball is kind of all over the place, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/888 "2017-04-12T18:15:21Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > And obviously, inevitably, it’s Trump’s fault. > > [‘Star Trek’ actor blames Trump for United passenger being dragged away](http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/11/star-trek-actor-blames-trump-for-united-passenger-being-dragged-away/) > > This would never have happened if Hillary were in office. God, what an idiot. The world would, IMO, be a vastly better place in a variety of ways if Hillary Clinton had won the election, but this exact same shit would still be going on. In fact, it is precisely Clinton’s type of corporate-friendly Democrats who have helped create and sustain a world where growing concentration and oligopoly means that companies can treat their customers like shit without any real consequences. You can’t threaten to take your business elsewhere, because either there is no “elsewhere” to take it (see: the cable internet industry in most of the US), or there are only a few key players, they all treat their customers like crap, and they all have arbitration clauses that prevent you from seeking legal remedies (see: just about every large industry left in the country). > [@bordelond](#): > > [Chris Christie weighs in](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/12/christie-tees-off-on-awful-united-airlines-in-wake-uproar.html) (no pun intended): > Doubt it goes anywhere … but in the meantime, I got some popcorn popping. Chris Christie trying to take advantage of a big story to hop back on the populist bandwagon. What a fucking ass that guy is. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Tensions would have been much lower. > > I don’t know if you noticed that immigration agents asked detainees to sign away their residency status and dozens of legal immigrants were detained for no reason recently. > > It is quite likely that the doctor was very concerned, you know being an immigrant and all. > > He was reacting like someone in fear particularly when he re-boarded. I’m willing to believe that the doctor himself was in fear, and that some of this could have been the result of the general political climate. But i don’t think this would have gone any differently, even if Trump were not part of the political landscape. Airlines have been treating their customers like cattle (at best) and terrorists (at worst) since 2001, mainly in the interests of corporate profit rather than safety. Having received about $18 billion in government compensation and loan guarantees in 2001, the airlines got back on their feet with public money, and have managed to earn record profits from a flying population that needs the service they provide but, for the most part, hates their guts for the way they provide it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/889 "2017-04-12T18:17:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That has been suggested by absolutely no one, whereas “Just break the contract and pay the fine-no big deal” _has_ been brought forward as an viable option. > Do try to keep up. Who has done that? Not a single person in this thread. I did ask a question, seeing if it were a viable option. I do not know if it is or not, and I did not advance it as a viable option. A question that was not answered. You are not breaking a contract if the contract deliniates penalties for not following parts of it, and you cover those penalties. I do not know what those penalties are, hence my question, and you obviously don’t either, hence your non-answer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/890 "2017-04-12T18:17:45Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Gah … you are right. The bouncing ball is kind of all over the place, isn’t it? After breaking free from law enforcement, running back onto the plane and hiding in the back, is there anyone here who would want him to stay on the plane? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/891 "2017-04-12T18:20:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > After breaking free from law enforcement, running back onto the plane and hiding in the back, is there anyone here who would want him to stay on the plane? No, obviously not. At that point, he needed medical treatment, and was in no shape to fly. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/892 "2017-04-12T18:34:11Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > You may believe that an $800 voucher is proper, but the FAA doesn’t. See my earlier post. It’s $1,350 in _cash_ if that is what the bumped passenger wants. There’s a world of difference there. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > So you don’t actually know what’s going on? > > The mandatory $1,350 is for involuntary bumping, and only if the airfare is above a certain amount–and literally _no one_ is claiming that those who were removed _involuntarily_ did not receive that. Well, _yeah_ - but this is what **TokyoBayer** is saying, if I read him right. “It’s $1,350 in _cash_ if that is what the bumped passenger wants,” because if the passenger wants $1350\*, and won’t get off for less, then it’s an involuntary bump at any lesser offer, and that means $1350. \*Yes, we know: only if the one-way fare is at least $337.50; if not, it’s 4x the one-way fare. Can we assume without loss of generality, as we math geeks say, that it is, and only deal with the case where it’s less than that if it really makes a difference besides the number? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/893 "2017-04-12T18:43:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, _yeah_ - but this is what **TokyoBayer** is saying, if I read him right. “It’s $1,350 in _cash_ if that is what the bumped passenger wants,” because if the passenger wants $1350\*, and won’t get off for less, then it’s an involuntary bump at any lesser offer, and that means $1350. I’m not sure what you’re saying is at all coherent. Here’s how it works: They put out a general call for volunteers and say “Hey, this is what we’re offering, if it’s good enough for you then great!” They don’t ask specific individuals to volunteer–it’s essentially a cattle call at this point. If they don’t get enough volunteers, then they start picking people (by whatever procedure they happen to use) to be removed involuntarily. _Those_ people are given the legally-mandated amount automatically. And _no one_ familiar with the situation is saying that in this event, those who were removed involuntarily were given any less than what was legally mandated. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/894 "2017-04-12T18:50:31Z")
> **[United passenger launches legal action over forceful removal](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ual-passenger-idUSKBN17E1GN)** > > Lawyers for the passenger dragged from a United Airlines plane in Chicago filed an emergency request with an Illinois state court on Wednesday to require the carrier to preserve video recordings and other evidence related to the incident. “We’re not going to put a law enforcement official … to remove a booked, paid, seated passenger,” United Continental Holdings Inc Chief Executive Officer Oscar Munoz told ABC News on Wednesday morning. “We can’t do that.” IOW “we f\*cked up”. The discussion of whether UAL was right or wrong is over: wrong. In the world of business if you admit you’re wrong, you’re wrong, end of story. ‘Right on principal’ is an irrelevant concept in that sphere. And the pay out coming to Dr. Dao while perhaps big for him would never be _that_ big for UAL. This kind of statement by the CEO ends the argument ‘UAL did nothing wrong’. It doesn’t make Dao a great guy, OTOH that’s not the point as I see it. It also doesn’t settle what disciplinary action if any should be taken against the cops involved, unknown facts and witness accounts there. But again the battle of the _you must comply with ‘LEO’s’_! people, as if the prime directive of life, and those with a more skeptical view of the cops, can often be worked around by finding ways to settle things without calling the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/895 "2017-04-12T18:57:43Z")
Lesson learned: With enough histrionics, public pressure and a wee bit of pressure from a foreign government threatening a boycott(gee-I wonder if I put those in the right order of importance?), _anything_ is possible! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/896 "2017-04-12T19:01:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember-it wasn’t the airline that instituted force in this case. It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.” You are assuming that United did not use any trigger words like “disruptive” or “angry” when describing him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/897 "2017-04-12T19:08:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Lesson learned: With enough histrionics, public pressure and a wee bit of pressure from a foreign government threatening a boycott(gee-I wonder if I put those in the right order of importance?), _anything_ is possible! I don’t see any need for sarcasm. It seems to me pretty obvious that it’s perfectly right that businesses should be susceptible to the pressure of public opinion. United should be forced to change policies that people consider outrageous. There’s no injustice in that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/898 "2017-04-12T19:08:57Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > You are assuming that United did not use any trigger words like “disruptive” or “angry” when describing him. No, I am not assuming any such thing one way or another, since I have no evidence. If you do, please let us know. If you do not, why did you bring it up? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/899 "2017-04-12T19:09:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Lesson learned: With enough histrionics, public pressure and a wee bit of pressure from a foreign government threatening a boycott(gee-I wonder if I put those in the right order of importance?), _anything_ is possible! Welcome to the 21st Century United States of America ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/900 "2017-04-12T19:10:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Lesson learned: With enough histrionics, public pressure and a wee bit of pressure from a foreign government threatening a boycott(gee-I wonder if I put those in the right order of importance?), _anything_ is possible! Yeah, people can’t make up their minds. Last time there was this much public pressure on the airlines to change their ways, it was because the crew wouldn’t let the passengers leave their seats while sitting on the tarmac for hours, and now people get upset that the crew makes them leave their seats before the plane ever even leaves? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=46)