# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/921 "2017-04-12T20:57:09Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > But in hyper-legal US society as it now exists, maybe such a clarification of the law is actually needed, ‘you must obey’ has to be about safety, without ridiculous elastic stretching. Maybe the airlines will on their own stop pulling such stunts to save a few bucks. Add “welfare and comfort of fellow passengers” or else people will feel vindicated it’s their absolute right be as obnoxious as they care to be as long as it doesn’t imminently threaten the vehicle (many already act that way). And as far as I go, keep the cabin an absolute dictatorship once the aircraft is underway. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/922 "2017-04-12T20:58:51Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Add “welfare and comfort of fellow passengers” or else people will feel vindicated it’s their absolute right be as obnoxious as they care to be as long as it doesn’t imminently threaten the vehicle (many already act that way). And as far as I go, keep the cabin an absolute dictatorship once the aircraft is underway. Good points both. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/923 "2017-04-12T20:59:59Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Add “welfare and comfort of fellow passengers” or else people will feel vindicated it’s their absolute right be as obnoxious as they care to be as long as it doesn’t imminently threaten the vehicle (many already act that way). And as far as I go, keep the cabin an absolute dictatorship once the aircraft is underway. “Now that we are in the air, we will be asking all passengers to write down their PIN, their mother’s maiden name, their social security number, and then eat this cyanide capsule.” ---
**Author:** ![SloppyJoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@SloppyJoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SloppyJoes)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/924 "2017-04-12T21:04:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So. lets see. **United Airlines** has admitted they were wrong. The **Police** admitted they were wrong. The DOT has said it is investigating it. The Press has universally said United airlines was wrong. > > But\*\* Czarcasm\*\* still thinks Dao was wrong. :rolleyes: Indeed. The officer used way too much brutal excessive force, and then to drag him across the plane when he was knocked out? Come on. However, Dao’s decision to start shrieking like a goddamn West Texas cheerleader was a little melodramatic and over the top, although it doesn’t justify him being roughed up. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/925 "2017-04-12T21:08:59Z")
_Huffington Post_ op-ed: [United Airlines, David Dao And The Way We Blame](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/united-airlines-david-dao-and-the-way-we-blame_us_58ed48b9e4b0145a227cb942) > [@](#): > > Dao’s forcible eviction from his seat was not so much a genuine aberration as a grotesque exaggeration of existing phenomena ― overbooking and overselling (neither of which, it should be noted, apply to the flight in question), nebulous rules for denying passengers service, and the general deterioration of the customer experience over years were bound to converge into an ugly incident at some point (though it would have taken a gifted seer indeed to anticipate a passenger badly bloodied while being dragged from a seat for which he had paid and had already occupied.) It is simultaneously surprisingly and sadly predictable. > > Equally predictable and perhaps more instructive is a particular element of the public response, one that seeks to excuse or vindicate United Airlines and is prepared to indict Dao in order to do it. While the broad public response has been condemnatory of United Airlines, the airline has its share of apologists and defenders. The first and broadest line of defense are variations on the theme of “What else was United supposed to do?”, as if calling the police to clean up by physical force what was essentially a corporate scheduling error was the only available option (as opposed to, say, raising the offer of compensation for volunteers to take a later flight, or flying their personnel on a different plane.) > > The second line of defense is narrower, because it requires time and some degree of investigative skill: smearing Dao, himself. A few media outlets found themselves up to the task, starting with the Louisville Courier-Journal, which had, at least, the (painfully thin) excuse that Dao is a local figure to justify an article on Dao’s legal history from more than a decade ago. Other publications lacked even that pretext, and proceeded anyway. That Dao’s legal history, much less his career as a poker player, are irrelevant to the incident at hand should go without saying. > > **These defenses of United are not just unsupportable, they are unsettling. They reveal in their users a fundamental refusal, or inability, to comprehend someone else’s perspective, and a need to fortify their belief in a world in which something bad can happen to another person only if that person has done something to deserve it.** > > For some, a refusal to comply with an order given by an airline (ponder for a moment the absurdity of those words outside of any context other than the prevention or management of an aviation emergency) is sufficient reason to be beaten bloody; for others, Dao must be shown to have been in some other, more personal way deserving of pain and judgment, even if that justification is a decade old and totally irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/926 "2017-04-12T21:14:08Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > _Huffington Post_ op-ed: > > [United Airlines, David Dao And The Way We Blame](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/united-airlines-david-dao-and-the-way-we-blame_us_58ed48b9e4b0145a227cb942) So the author of the op-ed can’t be bothered to understand what’s actually going on here? At the point that the owners of the plane (more precisely, the owners’ agents) told him to get off the plane, everything else that happened up to that point is irrelevant. It’s their plane, and they have the right to decide who is and is not allowed on, and when someone they decide is not allowed on is told to leave, that person is obligated to leave no matter what. Otherwise, they’re trespassing. If there are contractual issues to be resolved, you handle those later, in court, and if some shady shit went down you’ll be awarded damages. Anyone who’s reconciled themselves to being a part of civilized society understands this. Hell, what the airline CEO said is even irrelevant. People “admit” they’re wrong when they’re not all the time. People wrongly accused of crimes make false confessions to get the torture to stop. Companies admit wrongdoing when they weren’t wrong to try and stop the PR bleeding. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/927 "2017-04-12T21:15:31Z")
> [@SloppyJoes](#): > > Indeed. The officer used way too much brutal excessive force, and then to drag him across the plane when he was knocked out? Come on. One thing that I haven’t yet seen mentioned is that the officer didn’t raise the aisle armrest. Typically it is down, but there is a latch underneath the armrest which unlocks it so that it can swing up. In the videos where Dao is being dragged down the aisle, you can see that the armrests have hinges on the back. I’m surprised that the officer didn’t raise that to make it easer to get Dao out of the seats. I would guess having to pull him across the lowered armrest made the extraction more violent than it needed to be. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/928 "2017-04-12T21:18:17Z")
here is the video of the police telling him that they will drag him off of the plane and he says that they will have to drag him. [- YouTube](Https://youtu.be/dictjRe7n_g) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/929 "2017-04-12T21:19:31Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > So the author of the op-ed can’t be bothered to understand what’s actually going on here? > > At the point that the owners of the plane (more precisely, the owners’ agents) told him to get off the plane, everything else that happened up to that point is irrelevant. It’s their plane, and they have the right to decide who is and is not allowed on, and when someone they decide is not allowed on is told to leave, that person is obligated to leave no matter what. Otherwise, they’re trespassing. > > If there are contractual issues to be resolved, you handle those later, in court, and if some shady shit went down you’ll be awarded damages. Anyone who’s reconciled themselves to being a part of civilized society understands this. > . Except it’s not irrelevant, being as such passenger rights are covered both by contract and law. It seems United violated the law, and it’s obvious they violated their contract. So, they can order you off the plane mid flight? No parachute of course? :dubious::rolleyes: “\* They reveal in their users a fundamental refusal, or inability, to comprehend someone else’s perspective, and a need to fortify their belief in a world in which something bad can happen to another person only if that person has done something to deserve it.”\* ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/930 "2017-04-12T21:23:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except it’s not irrelevant, being as such passenger rights are covered both by contract and law. It seems United violated the law, Based on what? > [@](#): > > and it’s obvious they violated their contract. Based on what? And hell, even if they _did_ violate their contract, the person involved isn’t the one empowered to make that decision, on the spot. That’s something that gets resolved _in court_. In the meantime, you get off the plane because it’s their plane, and if they did something they shouldn’t, you’ll be awarded damages in court. Of course, I said this all already in the post you quoted, which makes me think you didn’t actually bother to read it. > [@](#): > > “\* They reveal in their users a fundamental refusal, or inability, to comprehend someone else’s perspective, and a need to fortify their belief in a world in which something bad can happen to another person only if that person has done something to deserve it.”\* What utter fucking nonsense. Bad shit happens to people who don’t deserve it all the time. Trayvon Martin didn’t deserve it. Eric Garner didn’t deserve it. Michael Brown didn’t deserve it. This isn’t one of those times, though, and it takes an idiot (such as, apparently, the author of this nonsense) to assume that people can’t distinguish between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/931 "2017-04-12T21:24:26Z")
Simple solution: Last to check in = First to be involuntarily bumped. Repeat as necessary. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/932 "2017-04-12T21:26:22Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > So the author of the op-ed can’t be bothered to understand what’s actually going on here? > > At the point that the owners of the plane (more precisely, the owners’ agents) told him to get off the plane, everything else that happened up to that point is irrelevant. It’s their plane, and they have the right to decide who is and is not allowed on, and when someone they decide is not allowed on is told to leave, that person is obligated to leave no matter what. Otherwise, they’re trespassing. \ Well … there’s a new normal now. At least for situations like this one. People that hold opposing opinions from you aren’t dumb or misinformed – I think there is specific and honest disagreement about what actually is relevant in this matter. You wrote that “everything else that happened up to that point is irrelevant,” whereas others believe that “the only actions of relevance occurred before that point”. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/933 "2017-04-12T21:29:59Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Based on what? They did not give him the CoC to read as required by law. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Based on what? The flight was not overbooked according to United’s own definition and as such cannot invoke Rule 25. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/934 "2017-04-12T21:31:19Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Based on what? > > Based on what? > > And hell, even if they _did_ violate their contract, the person involved isn’t the one empowered to make that decision, on the spot. That’s something that gets resolved _in court_. In the meantime, you get off the plane because it’s their plane, and if they did something they shouldn’t, you’ll be awarded damages in court. Various experts, pundits, admissions and a public announcement by the DOT. Various experts, pundits, admissions and a public announcement by the CEO of United. So again- they can order you off the plane mid flight? No parachute of course? of course that’s ridiculous. So is them ordering you our of a paid for and contractually yours and legally yours seat. Passengers have rights- \*\*BY LAW. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/935 "2017-04-12T21:32:40Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > They did not give him the CoC to read as required by law. > > The flight was not overbooked according to United’s own definition and as such cannot invoke Rule 25. All of which gets resolved in court, later on, and may entitle him to damages–it does not entitle him to remain on the plane at that moment, after he’s instructed to get off. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/936 "2017-04-12T21:32:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So. lets see. **United Airlines** has admitted they were wrong. The **Police** admitted they were wrong. The DOT has said it is investigating it. The Press has universally said United airlines was wrong. > > But\*\* Czarcasm\*\* still thinks Dao was wrong. :rolleyes: Sure do, because at that time he _was_ wrong-wrong to disobey the captain’s instructions, wrong to resist arrest, wrong to escape custody, and wrong to run back on the plane and try to hide in the back. Of course, that police officer was wrong in roughing him up. Just because one side does wrong doesn’t make everything the other side does right. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/937 "2017-04-12T21:33:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Various experts, pundits, admissions and a public announcement by the DOT. > > Various experts, pundits, admissions and a public announcement by the CEO of United. > > So again- they can order you off the plane mid flight? No parachute of course? Yes. It’s also not at all comparable to what happened here, since they weren’t ordering him to do anything that would endanger him. > [@](#): > > of course that’s ridiculous. So is them ordering you our of a paid for and contractually yours and legally yours seat. Passengers have rights- \*\*BY LAW. \*\* And. Those. Rights. Are. Enforced. By. The. Court. And. Not. By. Self. Help. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/938 "2017-04-12T21:34:51Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Companies admit wrongdoing when they weren’t wrong to try and stop the PR bleeding. Forget what a company admits and says – why does a company go out of its way to _change policy_ if it’s not wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/939 "2017-04-12T21:35:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Simple solution: Last to check in = First to be involuntarily bumped. Repeat as necessary. I would have thought a better solution would be to continue bumping the compensation until you get 4 passengers willing to get off the plane. Two free tickets to any destination would have almost certainly been enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/940 "2017-04-12T21:36:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So is them ordering you our of a paid for and contractually yours and legally yours seat. Passengers have rights- \*\*BY LAW. \*\* What do you know about that contract? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=48)