# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/941 "2017-04-12T21:36:23Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Forget what a company admits and says – why does a company go out of its way to _change policy_ if it’s not wrong? I don’t know. Why does anyone confess to a crime while being tortured, if they’re not guilty? ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/942 "2017-04-12T21:38:31Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > So the author of the op-ed can’t be bothered to understand what’s actually going on here? > > At the point that the owners of the plane (more precisely, the owners’ agents) told him to get off the plane, everything else that happened up to that point is irrelevant. It’s their plane, and they have the right to decide who is and is not allowed on, and when someone they decide is not allowed on is told to leave, that person is obligated to leave no matter what. Otherwise, they’re trespassing. > > If there are contractual issues to be resolved, you handle those later, in court, and if some shady shit went down you’ll be awarded damages. Anyone who’s reconciled themselves to being a part of civilized society understands this. > > Hell, what the airline CEO said is even irrelevant. People “admit” they’re wrong when they’re not all the time. People wrongly accused of crimes make false confessions to get the torture to stop. Companies admit wrongdoing when they weren’t wrong to try and stop the PR bleeding. IANAL and legally United may have been well within it’s rights. The thing is they shouldn’t have done it. If I own a business, sure it’s my legal right to ask someone to leave, but morally I shouldn’t be calling the cops on a customer who was not doing anything wrong up until the point he was asked to leave. I’m with all the other posters that think United should have continued to increase the offer or charter a plane for the employees if the auction reached a point where that was the cheaper option. There are lots of other situations where I could legally call the cops and have someone hauled away for trespassing. That doesn’t make it a good idea or morally correct. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/943 "2017-04-12T21:40:44Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > … > > Not. > > By. > > Self. > > Help. A vast majority of the time, yes, but not always. “Not by self help” has never been an absolute hard line. As with many things … it depends. You know, the underlying rules and laws of our society are a lot more malleable and _ad hoc_ than you may believe. Compare 1950s America to today for scores of easy examples. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/944 "2017-04-12T21:41:24Z")
Does the passenger have any legal or moral obligations? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/945 "2017-04-12T21:41:46Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > I don’t know. Why does anyone confess to a crime while being tortured, if they’re not guilty? Don’t think that’s comparable. YMMV. Our respective worldviews won’t allow agreement on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/946 "2017-04-12T21:43:36Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Don’t think that’s comparable. YMMV. Our respective worldviews won’t allow agreement on this matter. Who does the CEO serve? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/947 "2017-04-12T21:45:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does the passenger have any legal or moral obligations? Any? Of course. But recognizing that doesn’t get us anywhere if we don’t agree on what those obligations are. I’d like to think there is broad agreement, and that any disagreement is over fine points that would almost never crop up and cause real trouble. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/948 "2017-04-12T21:46:10Z")
Hey **Czarcasm** , I’ve asked you twice already and you either didn’t see it or are dodging – care to respond? Here’s what prompted the first question again: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember-it wasn’t the airline that instituted force in this case. It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.” And my question: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh, we’re supposed to remember this from the recorded/transcribed conversation between the flight crew and law enforcement officers? Or, perhaps, you’re a psychic? > > Or is it something else? And again after you said that you aren’t assuming anything: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Actually, [you assumed](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20133236#post20133236) “It was a duly appointed law enforcement officer that instituted force, and did so independent of any request than “He is a trespasser-please remove him.”” Care to respond? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/949 "2017-04-12T21:47:47Z")
I can’t help feeling that all of the people on radio, in print, on message groups, etc. that feel that people should cave into people in authority (air crews, police) and not stand on their rights reflect the bully mentality in our society. People like Clay Travis who this morning was pontificating that you should unquestionably do whatever the cop tells you no matter what. Cop tells you to stop legally filming as they beat on a black kid? Better do it and complain later so that the police can claim the cop was right even though he made up a law that doesn’t exist. See it’s not about your rights or if The Big Bossman (flight crew, cop, landlord, employer, etc.) is wrong. It’s about giving in to the bully because Fuck You! You do what I tell you! and then later deal with the issue so some other bully can say “Fuck you little guy.” #FIGHTTHEBULLIES ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/950 "2017-04-12T21:49:11Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I can’t help feeling that all of the people on radio, in print, on message groups, etc. that feel that people should cave into people in authority (air crews, police) and not stand on their rights reflect the bully mentality in our society. You absolutely should stand up for your rights. But remaining on someone else’s property when they tell you to get off isn’t a right. This isn’t difficult. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/951 "2017-04-12T21:49:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who does the CEO serve? “Stockholders” is the pat answer. Things, of course, can get more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/952 "2017-04-12T21:57:01Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > All of which gets resolved in court, later on, and may entitle him to damages–it does not entitle him to remain on the plane at that moment, after he’s instructed to get off. Ah yes. Little guy prevailing against United Airlines in court over being bumped. Even if he wins, how in debt will he be after lawyer fees? Is that a realistic solution? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/953 "2017-04-12T22:00:22Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > You absolutely should stand up for your rights. > > But remaining on someone else’s property when they tell you to get off isn’t a right. > > This isn’t difficult. Remember that if your landlord illegally evicts you that you don’t have a right to live there. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/954 "2017-04-12T22:05:55Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Remember that if your landlord illegally evicts you that you don’t have a right to live there. And, by his logic, I should be able to go to the house in which he is currently residing, and order him out of my house with the force of the police behind me. The fact that it’s not my house, and I don’t have the right to make that order is something that he can later deal with in court. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/955 "2017-04-12T22:07:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sure do, because at that time he _was_ wrong-wrong to disobey the captain’s instructions, wrong to resist arrest, wrong to escape custody, and wrong to run back on the plane and try to hide in the back. Of course, that police officer was wrong in roughing him up. > Just because one side does wrong doesn’t make everything the other side does right. Actually IMHO he was\* right.\* By standing up for his rights under DOT regulations and his contract he exposed United’s egregious, immoral unethical and illegal policies. He stood up for every United passengers rights. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/956 "2017-04-12T22:08:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What do you know about that contract? We have a legal expert, a handful of pundits and United itself admitting they were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/957 "2017-04-12T22:09:40Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Remember that if your landlord illegally evicts you that you don’t have a right to live there. The difference is that, because of the special circumstances of being, you know, someone’s home, the law treats landlord-tenant relationships differently. Again…this isn’t difficult. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/958 "2017-04-12T22:10:21Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > You absolutely should stand up for your rights. > > But remaining on someone else’s property when they tell you to get off isn’t a right. > > This isn’t difficult. It is when you have the right to be there and they do not have the right to evict you. If you have a valid lease and paid up rent, the owner of that land cant just order you off. You arent the one trespassing- he is. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/959 "2017-04-12T22:12:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Ah yes. Little guy prevailing against United Airlines in court over being bumped. Even if he wins, how in debt will he be after lawyer fees? Is that a realistic solution? I’m fairly certain that his lawyer will represent him on a contingency fee basis. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/960 "2017-04-12T22:12:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually IMHO he was\* right.\* By standing up for his rights under DOT regulations and his contract he exposed United’s egregious, immoral unethical and illegal policies. He stood up for every United passengers rights. Exactly. No one is saying that he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize or is even the new Rosa Parks, but I admire him for saying I’m right, you’re wrong and I won’t be bullied. Of course even better would have been, as he’s being dragged off the plane, he yells, “I am not an animal! I am a human being!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=49)