# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/81 "2017-04-10T18:23:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t see that United did anything legally wrong. They were right and the doctor was wrong. > > … There is often a vast gulf separating what is legal and what is right and wrong. This is one of the more visible ways companies are legally allowed to do reprehensible things. I hope this serves as another reminder that to the airline, you are cargo. And to the crews of the airport and plane, you are a prison inmate. At least a few other airlines make the effort to disguise this, but United doesn’t give a flying fuck. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/82 "2017-04-10T18:31:28Z")
According to the AP story on this, “Last year, United forced 3,765 people off oversold flights”,( not counting twenty times that many who voluntarily gave up their seats)… That’s ten times every day, a version of this story is repeated with unwilling passengers… I wonder where all the other cellphone videos are. United can afford it. They have just about the highest penalty in the world if you need to cancel or rebook your flight. US-based airlines are notorious for that. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/83 "2017-04-10T18:33:22Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But I still don’t like seeing police forces used to resolve commercial disputes. This. It makes me uncomfortable when the police are called in to fix a staffing problem that United has. What next? Police throwing people out of a restaurant that’s overbooked? You really should listen to chef. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/84 "2017-04-10T18:37:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > …increase the likelihood of resolving this situation without violence. > > For example – instead of stopping at $800, cap the payment at $2K, or $4K (or higher). Chances are, there was a value that some passengers would have agreed to before they had to select passengers at random. > > Personally, I’ve seen a hysterical and uncooperative passenger successfully calmed down by a flight attendant, after a less patient flight attendant was making the situation worse. I don’t disagree with the points taken separately, but still I think an airline’s crappy policy for resolution of overbooking, and the forcible removal of passengers who persistently refuse to obey lawful instructions, are entirely separate matters. However much I dislike the airline’s decision to pick me by lottery and ask me to leave, I must still ultimately follow lawful instructions and get off the plane. However frustrated I may feel, sitting in my seat and defying law enforcement officers is not an appropriate response. All I can do is to get off, file grievances and seek compensation, perhaps even hire an attorney and sue. But sitting in my seat and refusing to comply is not going to produce a good outcome, any more than (say) refusing to comply with the instructions of a cop who I might feel has exceeded his authority in pulling me over. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/85 "2017-04-10T18:37:42Z")
A man, we’ll call him Gary, buys groceries at Piggly Wiggly. As Gary is walking to his car, the store manager gets a call from his boss that the Piggly Wiggly three towns over needs some items to fill out their shelves. Manager runs out and asks customers in the parking lot to return their food so the other store can put it on their shelves. No one bites. Manager offers some Piggly Wiggly gift cards. No one bites. Manager grabs Gary’s bags, Gary fights back with kicks and swats. Manager calls the police, who proceed to beat the shit out of Gary for refusing to comply with the manager and for fighting back, and then they give his food back to the manager. Should Gary have kicked and swatted the manager? No. But it only happened because the lazy asshole manager tried to compel a paying customer to return his purchase in order to stock the shelves at a nearby store so other customers could buy it, and then detain the paying customer and call the cops when he fought back and refused to comply. There were other better options the Piggly Wiggly manager could have taken, just like there were other better options United could’ve taken, but these lazy assholes couldn’t be arsed to take care of it without calling in the police to resolve the problem caused by their inability to run their business properly. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/86 "2017-04-10T18:43:12Z")
This thread is a good reminder about why economic populism is so powerful. People don’t give a shit about market efficiency or lower prices for goods and services or growing the overall size the economy. What they want is dignity. Most people happily choose a stilted and less successful economy with fewer choices and more expensive goods if they feel like they were getting treated with respect. Here’s hoping Democrats can hook all this populist anger to some useful policies before the Republicans figure out how. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/87 "2017-04-10T18:44:53Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t disagree with the points taken separately, but still I think an airline’s crappy policy for resolution of overbooking, and the forcible removal of passengers who persistently refuse to obey lawful instructions, are entirely separate matters. > > However much I dislike the airline’s decision to pick me by lottery and ask me to leave, I must still ultimately follow lawful instructions and get off the plane. However frustrated I may feel, sitting in my seat and defying law enforcement officers is not an appropriate response. All I can do is to get off, file grievances and seek compensation, perhaps even hire an attorney and sue. But sitting in my seat and refusing to comply is not going to produce a good outcome, any more than (say) refusing to comply with the instructions of a cop who I might feel has exceeded his authority in pulling me over. I think we’re arguing about different things. I’m not defending the passenger’s lack of cooperation. I’m saying that United (and maybe other airlines) are using law enforcement as a backstop to save them money, and they shouldn’t be allowed to do that IMO. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/88 "2017-04-10T18:45:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Off topic, but why did they have trouble getting people to agree to take $800 to take another flight? Chicago to Louisville is a five hour drive, a person could’ve taken the money and just rented a car if they didn’t want to wait for another flight. On the flip side, though, why didn’t the **airline** just rent a limo and driver, and get that flight crew to Louisville by road? The airline could have avoided the whole business just that simply. And like the old saying goes, “a failure to plan, on \*your \*part, doesn’t constitute an emergency on _my_ part.” I realize that the logistics of ensuring that your flight crews are in the right place at the right time are complicated, but it’s still the airline’s business to handle those logistics. If it was going to need seats on that flight to move a crew from Point A to Point B, it shouldn’t have sold them in the first place. And if it needed them all of a sudden due to bad planning, or weather, or whatever, the airline should have accepted the responsibility, and kept offering more money (preferably good old no-strings-attached cash!) to entice volunteers to catch a flight the next morning, or even drive them down by limo that night. So the airline blew it first by failing to make the choices that could have avoided the entire situation. True, once they blew it, the guy shouldn’t have resisted. Can’t argue that. But again, great PR on the part of the airline, with video all over the Web showing this guy being literally dragged down the floor of the aisle by his armpits. That it came to that not only reinforces the stupidity of their initial bad decisions, but makes them visible to the world. I will admit my own bias here: I expect a global corporation to make better decisions when faced with a situation of their own making than I would expect of some random individual when something like this is sprung on him. Speaking of which, I have to wonder how the decision was made to have this guy forcibly removed from the plane. Was this the last, when-all-except-offering-more-money-fails, option in some manual? Or did the staff at the gate have to get someone higher up the line to give the okay to do this, and if so, how high up did they have to go? ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/89 "2017-04-10T18:45:46Z")
Here’s a question. I didn’t see it answered yet but…if they have to get to the involuntary stage, do the people picked get NO compensation at all because they refused it when it was offered? Like “Well you should have raised your hand when we were offering $800. Since you didn’t, sucks to be you.”? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/90 "2017-04-10T18:46:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think we’re arguing about different things. I’m not defending the passenger’s lack of cooperation. I’m saying that United (and maybe other airlines) are using law enforcement as a backstop to save them money, and they shouldn’t be allowed to do that IMO. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/91 "2017-04-10T18:47:57Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > …United doesn’t give a flying fuck. Interesting way to update the “friendly skies” slogan. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/92 "2017-04-10T18:51:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > A man, we’ll call him Gary, buys groceries at Piggly Wiggly. As Gary is walking to his car, the store manager gets a call from his boss that the Piggly Wiggly three towns over needs some items to fill out their shelves. Manager runs out and asks customers in the parking lot to return their food so the other store can put it on their shelves. No one bites. Manager offers some Piggly Wiggly gift cards. No one bites. Manager grabs Gary’s bags, Gary fights back with kicks and swats. Manager calls the police, who proceed to beat the shit out of Gary for refusing to comply with the manager and for fighting back, and then they give his food back to the manager. > > Should Gary have kicked and swatted the manager? No. But it only happened because the lazy asshole manager tried to compel a paying customer to return his purchase in order to stock the shelves at a nearby store so other customers could buy it, and then detain the paying customer and call the cops when he fought back and refused to comply. > > There were other better options the Piggly Wiggly manager could have taken, just like there were other better options United could’ve taken, but these lazy assholes couldn’t be arsed to take care of it without calling in the police to resolve the problem caused by their inability to run their business properly. If the shoppers agreed beforehand that they might have to give up their groceries in case of emergency to be determined by the store, then you might have a case here. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/93 "2017-04-10T18:51:23Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Here’s a question. I didn’t see it answered yet but…if they have to get to the involuntary stage, do the people picked get NO compensation at all because they refused it when it was offered? Like “Well you should have raised your hand when we were offering $800. Since you didn’t, sucks to be you.”? I won’t copy them all here, but there are government regulations regarding this: > **[Fly Rights | US Department of Transportation](https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights)** > > A Consumer Guide to Air Travel CONTENTS Air Fares Schedules and Tickets Delayed and Canceled Flights Overbooki ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/94 "2017-04-10T18:51:29Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Manager grabs Gary’s bags, Gary fights back with kicks and swats. Manager calls the police, who proceed to beat the shit out of Gary for refusing to comply with the manager and for fighting back, and then they give his food back to the manager. What I’ve learned from this thread is that my airline ticket must come with small print saying I am not really guaranteed the seat I paid for. My groceries probably do not have small print like that attached. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/95 "2017-04-10T18:51:36Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Well, the video that you can watch for yourself quite clearly shows several other passengers doing what could be described as “screaming” as well. Sure sounded like screaming to me, but [everyone can see the video and make up their own minds](http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/video-appears-to-show-passenger-being-removed-from-united-flight/). ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/96 "2017-04-10T18:54:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think we’re arguing about different things. I’m not defending the passenger’s lack of cooperation. I’m saying that United (and maybe other airlines) are using law enforcement as a backstop to save them money, and they shouldn’t be allowed to do that IMO. Yes, I agree with that. There is certainly a tendency around airports (the TSA in particular, of course) for any pushback to the unreasonable actions of staff to be met with the blackmail of “you are creating a security risk, sir”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/97 "2017-04-10T18:57:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If the shoppers agreed beforehand that they might have to give up their groceries in case of emergency to be determined by the store, then you might have a case here. You have no problem with businesses relying on law enforcement as a backstop to save money for inefficiencies in their business practices? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/98 "2017-04-10T18:57:21Z")
It looks like United might have fucked up their contract language. It provides that you can be “denied boarding” in the event of overbooking. That’s arguably ambiguous as to whether you can be permitted to board and then removed. But elsewhere in the same document, it uses the phrase “denied boarding or removed from the flight,” which suggests that these are distinct concepts. If so, then maybe a lawsuit against United will be successful after all. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/99 "2017-04-10T18:57:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If the shoppers agreed beforehand that they might have to give up their groceries in case of emergency to be determined by the store, then you might have a case here. I’m not presenting a “case.” I’m pointing out what lazy assholes do when they can’t figure out how to run their business. They freak out and call the cops when their incompetence causes some internal “emergency” that negatively impacts their customers who refuse to give in to that bullshit. This wasn’t an issue of fucking national security that these United employees needed to get on that plane. It was that that United fucked up… That’s not an “emergency” in my book. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/100 "2017-04-10T19:00:20Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > A man, we’ll call him Gary, buys groceries at Piggly Wiggly. As Gary is walking to his car, the store manager gets a call from his boss that the Piggly Wiggly three towns over needs some items to fill out their shelves. Manager runs out and asks customers in the parking lot to return their food so the other store can put it on their shelves. No one bites. Manager offers some Piggly Wiggly gift cards. No one bites. Manager grabs Gary’s bags, Gary fights back with kicks and swats. Manager calls the police, who proceed to beat the shit out of Gary for refusing to comply with the manager and for fighting back, and then they give his food back to the manager. > > Should Gary have kicked and swatted the manager? No. But it only happened because the lazy asshole manager tried to compel a paying customer to return his purchase in order to stock the shelves at a nearby store so other customers could buy it, and then detain the paying customer and call the cops when he fought back and refused to comply. > > There were other better options the Piggly Wiggly manager could have taken, just like there were other better options United could’ve taken, but these lazy assholes couldn’t be arsed to take care of it without calling in the police to resolve the problem caused by their inability to run their business properly. Happy, I was going to stay out of this thread, but that was a silly comparison that I just had to call you on, because you’re normally much better than that. You don’t sign A CONTRACT with the Piggly Wiggly when you buy your groceries obligating both sides to certain actions. But when you buy an airline ticket you do, in effect, sign a ‘contract’ regarding the rights and responsibilities of both parties (that’s all the ‘fine print’ in tickets we seldom see anymore due to electronic ticketing, but it is still in effect). And part of that contract says the airline can remove you from a flight when necessary and that you really don’t have any rights to protest, however ‘unjust’ the action is. So legally United was completely in it’s rights in the action it took. Very bad publicity, of course, and could possibly have been handled with a lot more tact, but legally the guy has nothing to stand on. Not a pilot, but like a lot of folks, flown a lot (6 continents and 55 US airports and counting) and have my stories too; but would never refuse a lawful order by the airline crew. IMHO as always. YMMV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=6)