# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1101 "2017-04-14T17:11:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > While calling the police to deal with a contractual dispute may not typically end in physical assault if you are going to hold the debate to pedantic definitions it does meet the definition. > > Or are you suggesting that calling in a security guard or police officer is not effective primarily due to the threat of physical force or power. > > It doesn’t matter if the flight crew wanted them to resort to violence, but they were called to offer the threat of physical force and/or imprisonment. Definitions actually do matter, so I ask you the same question: Are you using “force” and “violence” interchangeably? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1102 "2017-04-14T17:13:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Definitions actually do matter, so I ask you the same question: Are you using “force” and “violence” interchangeably? Nope, strawman as you are the one resorting to pedantry as an argument, how about you provide definitions. As I cannot divine your personal connotative definition, how about providing 3rd party referenced definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1103 "2017-04-14T17:15:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s because we are seeing what you think about the airlines, but little about Dao. Just so we understand each other, what do you think Dao did wrong that day, specifically? Nothing. The difference between us is you think a person should cave into a cop to suit THE COPS convenience. Dao was legally in the right and it was not convenient for him to give up his seat so he did nothing wrong. Just like I do nothing wrong if I tell a cop he can’t search my car at a traffic stop or refuse to talk to them when they question me. I believe your claim is don’t inconvenience cops that are violating our rights. OR Our civil rights aren’t worth taking a beating over. OR even more laughable In the absence of other people taking cell phone videos, a person actually has a chance in court against a large corporation or the police. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1104 "2017-04-14T17:15:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s because we are seeing what you think about the airlines, but little about Dao. Just so we understand each other, what do you think Dao did wrong that day, specifically? According to the contract that he was under with united, and the laws that they fly under, he did nothing wrong. At a certain point, the airline’s people were tearing up the contract (and just the other day, you were complaining about “tearing up the contract” when it would have inconvenienced the airline, note that you have a different attitude towards abrogating contracts when it is an individual being abused.) that they had with him and breaking the law, and giving him orders that were illegal for them to give. It would have been convenient for him to give in and meekly follow the illegal orders, but I do not think that he was wrong for standing up for his rights that were being abused. Tell you what, you tell me what [these guys](https://fineartamerica.com/featured/lunch-counter-sit-in-1961-granger.html) were doing wrong that day, and I’ll tell you what Dao did wrong. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1105 "2017-04-14T17:16:06Z")
Note that by the legal definition of “Violence” can include “picketing with false information on the placards, in an attempt to harm a business” So please provide a cite why my WHO definition is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1106 "2017-04-14T17:20:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And so it begins. And soon I’ll make millions by getting bumped off overbooked flights, MUWAHAHAHAHAA! Or, someone will beat me to the punch by taking $1,999. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1107 "2017-04-14T17:23:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Tell you what, you tell me what [these guys](https://fineartamerica.com/featured/lunch-counter-sit-in-1961-granger.html) were doing wrong that day, and I’ll tell you what Dao did wrong. Sorry, but you already played that hand by stating that Dao did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1108 "2017-04-14T17:24:57Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Note that by the legal definition of “Violence” can include “picketing with false information on the placards, in an attempt to harm a business” > > So please provide a cite why my WHO definition is wrong. yep-they sure did define “violence”. Is the definition of “force” the same? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1109 "2017-04-14T17:27:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sorry, but you already played that hand by stating that Dao did nothing wrong. Is that somehow worse than assuming his lawyer is exaggerating, or assuming that the airline didn’t tell the officers to use force on Dao? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1110 "2017-04-14T17:27:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sorry, but you already played that hand by stating that Dao did nothing wrong. Ah, so we are in agreement then. And here I thought you were trying to claim that the victim in this situation somehow did something illegal or unethical in such a way to deserve his treatment. Thank you for your clarification in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1111 "2017-04-14T17:28:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you want to come up with silly examples that stretch things to the insane, then I\*\* guess the right to keep your seat isn’t absolute, either\*\*. Agreed on the bolded. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1112 "2017-04-14T17:33:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Ah, so we are in agreement then. > > And here I thought you were trying to claim that the victim in this situation somehow did something illegal or unethical in such a way to deserve his treatment. > > Thank you for your clarification in the matter. Word games. So fun to play! When I say I agree with you, then you may take it I agree with you-period. I in no way said that he was completely innocent, _nor_ did I say that he was deserving of what he got. If you want to know what I say and/or think, try reading my words as they are written, not how you would re-write them to suit your purpose. Edited to add: If you are unclear as to anything I have said, it might be best for you to consult me instead of your imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1113 "2017-04-14T17:41:51Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Agreed on the bolded. Between your examples: “Pilot’s orders … take this knife and stab the person next to you … NOW!” “I’m the pilot and I’ve taken a fancy to you … disrobe and meet me in the cockpit pronto.” and my example: “I’m going to sit in this seat and not move even if it blocks people from escaping this flaming aircraft!” which do you think is more likely to happen? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1114 "2017-04-14T17:45:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Between your examples: > “Pilot’s orders … take this knife and stab the person next to you … NOW!” > “I’m the pilot and I’ve taken a fancy to you … disrobe and meet me in the cockpit pronto.” > and my example: “I’m going to sit in this seat and not move even if it blocks people from escaping this flaming aircraft!” > > which do you think is more likely to happen? #2. I saw it in a documentary called _Mile High Club Airlines_. Strangely enough they were not based in Denver but some town in Pennsylvania - for tax purposes I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1115 "2017-04-14T17:50:40Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Meanwhile, [at Delta:](http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/14/delta-denied-boarding-compensation/) > [@](#): > > - Previously gate agents were limited to offering $800 worth of vouchers in compensation, while supervisors were limited to offering $2,000 worth of vouchers in compensation > - Delta has now increased compensation limits for voluntary denied boardings — gate agents can now offer up to $2,000 worth of vouchers, while supervisors can offer up to $9,950 worth of vouchers > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And so it begins. Oh no, gate agents will be empowered with more options and people will be fairly compensated for the inconvenience they face. THE HORROR! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1116 "2017-04-14T17:54:07Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Oh no, gate agents will be empowered with more options and people will be fairly compensated for the inconvenience they face. THE HORROR! :eek: “Fair” and “What the market will bear” may rhyme, but that doesn’t mean they are synonymous. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1117 "2017-04-14T17:57:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > yep-they sure did define “violence”. > Is the definition of “force” the same? The most likely result of any attempt to respond to this argument is yet another strawman. I assume your refusal to provide a definition of “force” is an attempt to misdirect from the weakness of your argument. And you have ducked the question, what power did the law enforcement/security offer that the flight crew did outside of leveraging a threat of violence to gain compliance? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1118 "2017-04-14T18:05:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The most likely result of any attempt to respond to this argument is yet another strawman. > > I assume your refusal to provide a definition of “force” is an attempt to misdirect from the weakness of your argument. > > And you have ducked the question, what power did the law enforcement/security offer that the flight crew did outside of leveraging a threat of violence to gain compliance? Until we agree that your question as stated is correctly phrased, then I cannot answer it as written. You are trying to force the definition of “violence” to also mean “force” without having to say your definition of “force” outloud. If I say they have the option to use force if necessary, and you claim that means I said they have the option to use violence, then you have reworded what I said without my permission. Edited to add: Calling something a trap doesn’t automatically make it a trap. and any assumptions you make come from your own imagination. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1119 "2017-04-14T18:11:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Word games. So fun to play! > When I say I agree with you, then you may take it I agree with you-period. I in no way said that he was completely innocent, _nor_ did I say that he was deserving of what he got. If you want to know what I say and/or think, try reading my words as they are written, not how you would re-write them to suit your purpose. > Edited to add: If you are unclear as to anything I have said, it might be best for you to consult me instead of your imagination. I have asked you clear and concise questions, and given clear and concise answers to your questions. Your answers are coy and dissembling. I will admit that my last response to you was tongue in cheek at best, but that is because I am running out of patience with the games. So, instead of asking questions, I will “consult” with you. Can the police do anything that the flight crew cannot do that does not involve the use of force? Can you state, explicitly, what you feel that Dr. Dao did wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1120 "2017-04-14T18:11:48Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Between your examples: > > “Pilot’s orders … take this knife and stab the person next to you … NOW!” > > “I’m the pilot and I’ve taken a fancy to you … disrobe and meet me in the cockpit pronto.” > > and my example: “I’m going to sit in this seat and not move even if it blocks people from escaping this flaming aircraft!” > > > > which do you think is more likely to happen? > > #2. I saw it in a documentary called _Mile High Club Airlines_. Strangely enough they were not based in Denver but some town in Pennsylvania - for tax purposes I imagine. Intercourse PA, probably. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=57)