# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1361 "2017-04-18T20:15:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Both are responsible for the car being towed Thanks for answering a question I didn’t ask. Seems something you excel at > [@](#): > > Som, even if I am wrong about the extortion, you were wrong from your first post. Here is my first post: “I keep seeing this, and I didn’t see the answer in this thread (might not have looked well enough) but what law was being broken by the flight crews’ instructions? I mean, if the instructions were illegal, they must be breaking some law, right? Which law exactly?” Never mind the fact that I don’t know what “Som” means except the name of a girl I know in Thailand and I don’t know why you would be talking to her or calling me her name, I don’t see how my first post could be “wrong” when it was a few simple questions. So whatever. I’m willing to bet that the aircrew doesn’t get charged with extortion. They don’t even have to be convicted. I bet you $100 they don’t even get charged with extortion. You don’t need to answer anything else I posted in this thread, just put your money where your poorly reasoned outrage is. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1362 "2017-04-18T20:28:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks for answering a question I didn’t ask. Seems something you excel at Well, your question was useless, and only acted as a failed attempt at a gotcha. I answered your question honestly, even if the question itself was not an honest question. > [@](#): > > Here is my first post: “I keep seeing this, and I didn’t see the answer in this thread (might not have looked well enough) but what law was being broken by the flight crews’ instructions? I mean, if the instructions were illegal, they must be breaking some law, right? Which law exactly?” Which I replied to, explaining my reasoning on why it ticks off all the boxes in the illinois criminal code for intimidation. I also offered to soften my wording to unlawful, as I specifically didn’t want to get into such a dumb semantic argument as I am currently having with you. You refused to accept either of those, and continued on your tirade, against many posters who never even used the word in this thread. Even absent breaking criminal law, what they did, as has been explained by a few legal eagles to you in this thread, is accurately described as illegal. So, even absent breaking a law, their orders were illegal, which means that when your very first question said “if the instructions were illegal, they must be breaking some law, right?” you were already operating off of faulty information, and making an incorrect statement. > [@](#): > > Never mind the fact that I don’t know what “Som” means except the name of a girl I know in Thailand and I don’t know why you would be talking to her or calling me her name, I don’t see how my first post could be “wrong” when it was a few simple questions. Sorry for the slight typo, did we want to go on for a few pages about that? I meant “So,” all apologies for confusing you. Your post wasn’t wrong, your assumptions when you made the post, and a statement that made up most of your post were. Questions are fine, they mean that you are looking to learn something new. > [@](#): > > So whatever. I’m willing to bet that the aircrew doesn’t get charged with extortion. They don’t even have to be convicted. I bet you $100 they don’t even get charged with extortion. You don’t need to answer anything else I posted in this thread, just put your money where your poorly reasoned outrage is. As I already said in the very first post that I mentioned extortion that I doubted that they would be charged with it, no bet. I can also walk out of my shop, and cross the road against the light. I’ll bet you $100 I don’t get charged with jaywalking. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1363 "2017-04-19T04:43:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No, the point is, several of you keep pointing to regulations that cover denying boarding and somehow think they apply to this situation, which they don’t. But you keep pointing them out as though they do. That’s the point. No here is the point. The airline cannot remove a passenger except for very specific violations that Dao did not commit. So if he had already boarded by taking his seat as implied by the United website then they had no right to remove him and if it were in California it would be conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Ahhh (some people say) but nowhere is boarding defined so lets say that a passenger is “boarding” until the door of the plane is closed. Well then the airline violated other laws. So we point that out to say that no matter when boarding ended, United violated the law. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1364 "2017-04-19T05:11:20Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Ahhh (some people say) but nowhere is boarding defined so lets say that a passenger is “boarding” until the door of the plane is closed. Actually, one of the [stories](http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2017/04/united-airlines-own-contract-denied-it.html) linked earlier in the thread, written by a lawyer who specializes in this sort of stuff, deals with the issue of definitions in contracts. He says: > [@](#): > > The term “boarding” is not defined in the definition section of the contract, and absent an explicit definition in the contract, terms are to be afforded their plain meaning. > > “Boarding” means that the passenger presents a boarding pass to the gate agent who accepts or scans the pass and permits entry through the gate to the airplane, allowing the passenger to enter the aircraft and take a seat. If you had asked 1000 passengers what “boarding” meant, before this incident occurred, i’ll bet that at least 90 percent of them would have given you a definition something like the second paragraph in the above quote. If you asked regular airline passengers, “When have you (as a passenger) completed boarding?”, i’ll bet most of them would say something like: “When i’m on the plane and sitting in my assigned seat.” ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1365 "2017-04-19T13:18:20Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, one of the [stories](http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2017/04/united-airlines-own-contract-denied-it.html) linked earlier in the thread, written by a lawyer who specializes in this sort of stuff, deals with the issue of definitions in contracts. He says:If you had asked 1000 passengers what “boarding” meant, before this incident occurred, i’ll bet that at least 90 percent of them would have given you a definition something like the second paragraph in the above quote. If you asked regular airline passengers, “When have you (as a passenger) completed boarding?”, i’ll bet most of them would say something like: “When i’m on the plane and sitting in my assigned seat.” Yes, of course. The crew may still be boarding other passengers, but if you are in your seat, you have already boarded. I can’t imagine anyone calling a friend while sitting in their seat and say “I’m still boarding” That’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1366 "2017-04-19T17:50:31Z")
That is very true and I believe I was the first one in this thread to point out that according to United, and absent any definition to the contrary, that boarding was completed when you sit down. My point to manson was that United cannot weasel out of having committed illegal acts even if the retroactively redefine “boarding” to mean when the door is shut\*. \*Although I agree with the “once you’re seated” definition, I can see how United could argue boarding is not complete for anybody until the door is shut as you are still allowed reasonable ingress and egress from the plane at will. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1367 "2017-04-19T18:39:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Fair enough. So, in your opinion, if someone commits a civil infraction, then what they did is “illegal” but they haven’t committed a crime? Yes, though it’s not my opinion. It’s a fact, at least based on the plain meaning of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1368 "2017-04-19T19:29:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, though it’s not my opinion. It’s a fact, at least based on the plain meaning of the word. OK, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1369 "2017-04-20T16:35:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sorry for the slight typo, did we want to go on for a few pages about that? I meant “So,” all apologies for confusing you I did want to come back to this. Sorry, I thought you meant to type “Son” as in calling me “Son” and it irked me so I provided that response. If you meant “So” then I retract my snarky response to it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1370 "2017-04-20T16:51:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I did want to come back to this. Sorry, I thought you meant to type “Son” as in calling me “Son” and it irked me so I provided that response. If you meant “So” then I retract my snarky response to it. Assuming that your username indicates you birth year, I wouldn’t call you son without the involvement of a time machine. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1371 "2017-04-27T20:15:03Z")
[United settles](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/business/united-david-dao-settlement.html?ref=business&_r=0). Quickly and quietly as they can. No amounts mentioned, but hopefully it wasn’t in Airline Miles. ---
**Author:** ![Anxious\_Squirrel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anxious_squirrel/32/1083_2.png) [@Anxious\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anxious_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1372 "2017-04-27T20:33:36Z")
Good on them for changing their policies. Hopefully the other airlines are paying attention and “not violently dragging passengers off planes” will become a permanent policy for all of them. It’s sad they had to experience a shit storm of bad publicity before they realized this was a bad idea, but at least they figured it out eventually. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1373 "2017-04-28T06:22:26Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > [United settles](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/business/united-david-dao-settlement.html?ref=business&_r=0). Quickly and quietly as they can. > > No amounts mentioned, but hopefully it wasn’t in Airline Miles. I’m sure that it wouldn’t be in miles. United needed to get it taken care of as quickly as possible. From the linked article. > [@](#): > > The airline said it would create a new check-in process that would allow passengers to volunteer to give up their seats for compensation, and increased the limit of that compensation to $10,000 from $1,350. This is what I have felt all along. Just increase the compensation and you will get more volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1374 "2017-04-28T06:38:50Z")
I’m a member of United’s frequent flyer program. I received this email from them tonight: > [@United Airlines](#): > > Dear Mr Kenobi, \* > > Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It’s not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect. > > Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words. > > For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again? > It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right. > > Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it’s my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do. > > That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security. > > We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that. > > We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new “no-questions-asked” $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at [hub.united.com](http://hub.united.com). > > While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve. > I believe we must go further in redefining what United’s corporate citizenship looks like in our society. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step. Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, “I fly United.” > > Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us. > > We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve. > > With Great Gratitude, > Oscar Munoz > CEO > United Airlines - - Not my real name. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1375 "2017-04-28T12:52:16Z")
Would love to know how much Demetrio “earned” for his efforts. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1376 "2017-05-05T13:50:19Z")
Now it’s [Delta](http://abc7.com/travel/socal-family-thrown-off-overbooked-delta-flight-over-childs-seating/1951238/)’s turn. Tried to force a family to hold a toddler in their lap instead of using a seat that they had paid for. One employee even decided to rewrite their own [policies](http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/special-travel-needs/children.html) & [FAA rules & advice](https://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/) saying that a 2-year-old cannot be in a seat, or occupy a car seat, and needed to be sitting an adult’s lap. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1377 "2017-05-05T14:05:46Z")
I don’t think that family on Delta was in the right. They bought the seat for their 18-year-old, but he took an earlier flight. They argued since they bought this ticket, they could seat whoever they wanted there. That’s not how airlines tickets work, though. They’re not exchangeable, but apply only to the person whose name is on the ticket. And did the 18-year-old fly on Delta? If so, then they certainly already got use of their money. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1378 "2017-05-05T14:22:12Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I don’t think that family on Delta was in the right. They bought the seat for their 18-year-old, but he took an earlier flight. They argued since they bought this ticket, they could seat whoever they wanted there. That’s not how airlines tickets work, though. They’re not exchangeable, but apply only to the person whose name is on the ticket. > > And did the 18-year-old fly on Delta? If so, then they certainly already got use of their money. :shrug: I read that the family said that a ticketing agent said that it would be fine.:shrug: Who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1379 "2017-05-05T14:38:51Z")
Did the 18-year-old son check in for this flight? If not, then the airline properly thought the seat was available. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/1380 "2017-05-05T14:44:37Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > :shrug: I read that the family said that a ticketing agent said that it would be fine.:shrug: Who knows. If the ticketing agent said that, then he or she was contradicting the policy of basically every airline ever. Anyone who has flown more than three times in their life knows that you can’t just hand your airline ticket to another person, and that the name on the ticket needs to match the name on the ID of the flying customer. Is this a good policy? Personally, i don’t think so. I think it’s in place largely so the airlines can screw people out of money they’ve already paid for a ticket. I think that tickets should be much more easily transferable. But there is absolutely no question that it’s standard policy on the vast majority of airlines for the vast majority of tickets. If i book a ticket to San Francisco, and can’t make the flight for some reason, i can’t just hand my ticket to my friend because i know that he needs to fly to San Francisco that same day. The only difference here is that the alternate passenger was a member of the same family, and was a child. If the airline had truly approved the switcheroo, as the guy claimed, then it seems likely that they would have reissued the ticket in the child’s name. Of course, one of the big problems with airlines, as with no many customer service industries, is that there seem to be so many employees who either don’t know the policies, or are willing to break them under certain circumstances. There is also often a complete lack of communication between employees. It wouldn’t surprise me very much if one Delta employee told the family it would be fine, but didn’t convey that information to the other employees on the plane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=68) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=70)