# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/121 "2017-04-10T19:28:33Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Ooh, you got me there. :rolleyes: Do you have anything besides a “:rolleyes:” to counter the information given? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/122 "2017-04-10T19:29:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They tried to bribe him with much more then they were required, they tried to reason with him, they selected his name randomly so he couldn’t say he was being picked on, _then_ after all that, after it was explained to him that he had no legal right to stay on the plane they were forced to resort to the amount of force necessary to remove him. > How much more should have gone on, how much longer should they have stayed there inconveniencing the other passengers, before it becomes a “last resort”? How high should this have escalated before the authorities were brought in? Once they backed themselves into that corner, certainly, you’re right. But the thing is, as I listed in post #105, they had plenty of ways to avoid backing themselves into that corner, and only tried one of them, and that one only part way. And it was a situation of their own making to begin with, rather than something they had no control over. Basically, what I hear you saying is, “once United fucked up repeatedly, and we get to the point where they’ve demanded that some people leave the plane whether they want to or not, well, forget all that: what happens _next_ is what I want to focus on.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/123 "2017-04-10T19:31:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They could have continued to up the ante (the offer for compensation was to everyone on the plane, not just him – the likelihood of volunteers would have increased with more money being offered) – $800 is pretty damn low. They could have resolved this before having everyone board the plane. They shouldn’t have the option of using law enforcement as a backstop for their own business inefficiencies. They could have offered alternate transportation (train, bus, limousine, rental car, etc., since it wasn’t that far). This was the airline’s fault, not any passenger’s – it should be up to the airline to fix it, without relying on law enforcement to solve it for them with force. So what is this nonsense about waiting to use violence as a “last resort” when you seem to mean that law enforcement shouldn’t be called in at all? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/124 "2017-04-10T19:33:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what is this nonsense about waiting to use violence as a “last resort” when you seem to mean that law enforcement shouldn’t be called in at all? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the things I post? I can’t tell. Please tell me which sentences I’ve posted that you agree with, or which ones you disagree with, or which ones you think contradict other things I’ve said. For the record, I think violence should be used as a last resort to resolve unsafe situations. I don’t believe violence should be an option to resolve inefficiencies of business. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/125 "2017-04-10T19:34:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They tried to bribe him with much more then they were required, they tried to reason with him, they selected his name randomly so he couldn’t say he was being picked on, _then_ after all that, after it was explained to him that he had no legal right to stay on the plane they were forced to resort to the amount of force necessary to remove him. > How much more should have gone on, how much longer should they have stayed there inconveniencing the other passengers, before it becomes a “last resort”? How high should this have escalated before the authorities were brought in? In the video I saw, I did not see the “reasoning” and “explaining.” I’m not saying that didn’t happen, just that we don’t know how the man was treated/spoken to before they pulled him out, as far as I know. What I did see - and what people are outraged about, including the other passengers on the flight who actually saw it go down - is a bloody and possibly unconscious man being dragged by his arms out of the plane. Just to be clear, are you saying that that level of force was _necessary_? Personally, I would say it was _excessive_. The people who were actually there were shouting “No!” and “Why did you do that?” So there is some evidence that witnesses also felt it was excessive. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/126 "2017-04-10T19:34:27Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > Happy, I was going to stay out of this thread, but that was a silly comparison that I just had to call you on, because you’re normally much better than that. > > You don’t sign A CONTRACT with the Piggly Wiggly when you buy your groceries obligating both sides to certain actions. But when you buy an airline ticket you do, in effect, sign a ‘contract’ regarding the rights and responsibilities of both parties (that’s all the ‘fine print’ in tickets we seldom see anymore due to electronic ticketing, but it is still in effect). > > And part of that contract says the airline can remove you from a flight when necessary and that you really don’t have any rights to protest, however ‘unjust’ the action is. > > So legally United was completely in it’s rights in the action it took. Very bad publicity, of course, and could possibly have been handled with a lot more tact, but legally the guy has nothing to stand on. > > Not a pilot, but like a lot of folks, flown a lot (6 continents and 55 US airports and counting) and have my stories too; but would never refuse a lawful order by the airline crew. > > IMHO as always. YMMV. I’m not trying to present a legal case and obviously there are differences in buying groceries and flying, but my point was that even though Gary, like this customer, broke the law, he wouldn’t be in this position if the company hadn’t been lazy assholes who fucked up and abused their power (obviously not a direct tie in with a grocery manager; I do understand how retail and airlines differ). But the company in both instances _were_ being lazy assholes and unnecessarily relying on the police to fix a self-inflicted internal emergency caused by bad management on their part. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/127 "2017-04-10T19:34:37Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > in a civilized society, we’re expected to rise above our base impulses and recognize real possibilities and likelihoods instead of just focusing, id-like, on what we want. I would hope that this standard would apply to the airline as well as to the passenger. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/128 "2017-04-10T19:36:20Z")
The amount of people who are okay with this level of corporate violence is truly frightening. Not just here on the Dope, but a fair number of other sites I’ve visited have been blaming and shaming the man who was abused. I hope he sues United and whatever police department or security company that hired those goons. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/129 "2017-04-10T19:36:21Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Once a seat is purchased, if the person doesn’t show up, the airline still gets the fare, right? Not right. The price of re-booking is usually a $50-$100 fee. > [@Bone](#): > > If that’s the case, then eliminating overbooking could increase fare prices - I’d be okay with that. Correct. But why should you get to decide to increase my fare prices? I like lower prices and the risk of being put on a later flight. Maybe there are more people like you than me. I don’t know. But why shouldn’t the market decide? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/130 "2017-04-10T19:38:14Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Correct. But why should you get to decide to increase my fare prices? I like lower prices and the risk of being put on a later flight. Maybe there are more people like you than me. I don’t know. But why shouldn’t the market decide? Shouldn’t the market, not law-enforcement as a backstop, fix this kind of problem as well? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/131 "2017-04-10T19:39:30Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > The amount of people who are okay with this level of corporate violence is truly frightening. Not just here on the Dope, but a fair number of other sites I’ve visited have been blaming and shaming the man who was abused. > I hope he sues United and whatever police department or security company that hired those goons. I’m siding with the airline and the goons on this one. Passengers don’t get to pick what rules to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/132 "2017-04-10T19:39:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shouldn’t the market, not law-enforcement as a backstop, fix this kind of problem as well? You’ve almost gotten the position I [started](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20127736&postcount=33) this thread with. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/133 "2017-04-10T19:40:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not following the idea that overbooking saves money because of empty seats. Once a seat is purchased, if the person doesn’t show up, the airline still gets the fare, right? If that’s the case, that’s a much better solution than overbooking. Overbooking seems to allow the airline to double dip. If that’s the case, then eliminating overbooking could increase fare prices - I’d be okay with that. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Not right. The price of re-booking is usually a $50-$100 fee. > > Correct. But why should you get to decide to increase my fare prices? I like lower prices and the risk of being put on a later flight. Maybe there are more people like you than me. I don’t know. But why shouldn’t the market decide? Keep in mind that overbooking is a red herring here. The airline didn’t overbook its paying passengers (or maybe it did but had already resolved that problem, but it wasn’t the issue here); it had a logistical problem of its own making - a crew in Chicago that needed to be in Louisville or further on down that it hadn’t set aside seats for - that it was trying to resolve by forcing passengers off the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/134 "2017-04-10T19:40:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Once they backed themselves into that corner, certainly, you’re right. > > But the thing is, as I listed in post #105, they had plenty of ways to avoid backing themselves into that corner, and only tried one of them, and that one only part way. And it was a situation of their own making to begin with, rather than something they had no control over. > > Basically, what I hear you saying is, “once United fucked up repeatedly, and we get to the point where they’ve demanded that some people leave the plane whether they want to or not, well, forget all that: what happens _next_ is what I want to focus on.” Maybe you should try hearing what I’m writing instead of whatever it is you are translating it into? You gave a number of “solutions” without finding out if any of them were feasible at that time, and you have still to explain why they should have tried any of them in lieu of following written procedures agreed upon by both parties. I have flown a few times, and I have yet to read and or sign anything that gave me the right raise a stink in public and ignore law enforcement personnel if I didn’t like the situation I was in, nor did I have the option to create alternate off-the-book solutions for the crew to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/135 "2017-04-10T19:42:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They tried to bribe him with much more then they were required Are you sure United was so overgenerous? According to a story on ABC News: \*"Compensation varies by how long the passenger will be delayed. If the airline can rebook the passenger and get him to his destination within an hour of his originally scheduled arrival time, no compensation is required. If the passenger will arrive between one and two hours later than planned — or between one and four hours for an international flight — the airline must pay the passenger twice the amount of the one-way fare to his destination, up to $675. If the passenger will be delayed more than two hours — or four hours for international flights — the airline must pay him four times the one-way fare, up to $1,350."\* [http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/airlines-oversell-flights-end-bumping-passengers-46707350?cid=clicksource\_4380645\_1\_hero\_headlines\_headlines\_hed](http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/airlines-oversell-flights-end-bumping-passengers-46707350?cid=clicksource_4380645_1_hero_headlines_headlines_hed) I can hear James Kilpatrick on Point-Counterpoint saying: “Shana, he booked his seat, he took his chances that he wouldn’t be violently removed from it, dazed and bleeding…” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/136 "2017-04-10T19:42:49Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Not right. The price of re-booking is usually a $50-$100 fee. I’m not understanding. If I book a flight for $500, I pay for it, and I don’t show up for some reason, my understanding is that the airline keeps the $500. Some airlines allow you to purchase an upgraded ticket that allows you to transfer, re-book, kind of like flight insurance where if you aren’t able to make it, you can re-book. Are you saying that absent that, if I don’t show up I get some of my $500 back? > [@](#): > > Correct. But why should you get to decide to increase my fare prices? I like lower prices and the risk of being put on a later flight. Maybe there are more people like you than me. I don’t know. But why shouldn’t the market decide? I agree, the market should decide. If there was a lawful command given, then as a society we have decided that force up to an including killing the person is permitted under certain circumstances. But as to the market solution, a way to opt out of being randomly selected (for a fee) to get bumped would be worth it to me. I also purchase the travel insurance too though, because when I make plans it’s important I can execute on them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/137 "2017-04-10T19:44:20Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > As I understand it people aren’t properly incentivised to volunteer anyway, in that the offered remuneration is in voucher form with lots of limits as to how they can be redeemed. If they offered actual cash there would probably be actual volunteers Yeah. I was at a stop when they asked for volunteers. Then they upped the offer and I wandered over. It was a Mom and her baby, so thinking to combine a good deed with a nice bonus, I took the proffered voucher. It _was_ a valid voucher, but you cant combine it with points or sell it or cash it in, and I don’t fly all that often. So I gave it away. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/138 "2017-04-10T19:44:33Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Keep in mind that overbooking is a red herring here. The airline didn’t overbook its paying passengers (or maybe it did but had already resolved that problem, but it wasn’t the issue here); it had a logistical problem of its own making - a crew in Chicago that needed to be in Louisville or further on down that it hadn’t set aside seats for - that it was trying to resolve by forcing passengers off the plane. The literal definition of overbooking is when there are more confirmed passengers than there are available seats. The fact that the additional passengers were airline employees doesn’t change the fact that it was the overbooking provision of the contract that they relied on, and it is this ability of the airline to bump some passengers that is being debated. Overbooking is _always_ a “logistical problem of its own making.” ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/139 "2017-04-10T19:45:28Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I wasn’t trying to “get” you. Just noting that the market consensus at the moment is that this will have no effect on UAL’s bottom line. The market could be wrong, of course. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have anything besides a “:rolleyes:” to counter the information given? I do, in fact. My information is that a small uptick in United stock prices less than one day into the aftermath of this incident are more likely to be the result of any one a number of factors that have nothing to do with it, e.g. fuel prices. IANAstockbroker, so I’m willing to be educated on this point. Here’s an article about a previous United public relations snafu, from 2008: [http://sentium.com/a-public-relations-disaster-how-saving-1200-cost-united-airlines-10772839-negative-views-on-youtube/](http://sentium.com/a-public-relations-disaster-how-saving-1200-cost-united-airlines-10772839-negative-views-on-youtube/) After that incident, according to the article, “This tsunami of bad public relations has certainly had an effect on people’s decision in choosing an airline. The BBC reported that United’s stock price dropped by 10% within three to four weeks of the release of the video – a decrease in valuation of $180 million.” So maybe we should wait a few weeks to see how the stock price does? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/140 "2017-04-10T19:45:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shouldn’t the market, not law-enforcement as a backstop, fix this kind of problem as well? What you are asking for isn’t a market fix-you are asking for instantaneous capitulation to avoid unpleasantness and a threat of bad publicity. Market fixes come after the fact, after much deliberation, and they usually aren’t done for the sake of a single customer who reneges on a contract. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=8)