# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/141 "2017-04-10T19:45:52Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why? Because you say so? Airlines overbooking policy is well known and explicitly detailed when you buy your ticket. The policy works out for everyone involved. Airlines make more money, people willing to pay extra for seats will get them, and volunteers get free shit. The only time that it doesn’t is when someone is forcibly bumped. That very rare occurrence isn’t sufficient justification to ban the policy. Do they tell you when you purchase your ticket that they’re already overbooked so you can make an informed decision whether to make the purchase or try a different flight? If not then they aren’t being explicitly detailed. Again, the problem of people missing flights could be easily solved by making it clear at the time of purchase that tickets #X+1 and up (where X is the number of seats on the plane) are standby seats and that tickets 1-X get their seats first. The fact that over 3,000 people were forced off of flights last year clearly demonstrates that the policy does not work out for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/142 "2017-04-10T19:46:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not understanding. If I book a flight for $500, I pay for it, and I don’t show up for some reason, my understanding is that the airline keeps the $500. Some airlines allow you to purchase an upgraded ticket that allows you to transfer, re-book, kind of like flight insurance where if you aren’t able to make it, you can re-book. Are you saying that absent that, if I don’t show up I get some of my $500 back? Typically, even non-refundable tickets may be re-booked for a fee up until the moment of departure. I’m sure this varies with airlines. But the point is that you can re-book late enough that they’re not filling that seat unless they already oversold the flight. > [@Bone](#): > > I agree, the market should decide. If there was a lawful command given, then as a society we have decided that force up to an including killing the person is permitted under certain circumstances. But as to the market solution, a way to opt out of being randomly selected (for a fee) to get bumped would be worth it to me. I also purchase the travel insurance too though, because when I make plans it’s important I can execute on them. You can effectively do this by becoming a member of the airline’s frequent flyer club and/or buying a higher-class fare, because on many (most?) airlines that affects where you stand in the queue of people who might get the boot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/143 "2017-04-10T19:48:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What you are asking for isn’t a market fix-you are asking for instantaneous capitulation to avoid unpleasantness and a threat of bad publicity. Market fixes come after the fact, after much deliberation, and they usually aren’t done for the sake of a single customer who reneges on a contract. No, I offered at least one specific “market fix” (that airlines continue to raise the compensation offer until enough passengers agree). I’m also suggesting that the policy and practice (and maybe laws) should be changed, and this incident highlighted problems. I’m also criticizing those personally involved for not putting more effort into finding a peaceful way to resolve it (and for the major screw up of boarding everyone before it was resolved). “Just following orders”, or “just following the law”, isn’t always enough of a moral defense, and I don’t think it’s satisfactory in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/144 "2017-04-10T19:48:49Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > The amount of people who are okay with this level of corporate violence is truly frightening. Not just here on the Dope, but a fair number of other sites I’ve visited have been blaming and shaming the man who was abused. > I hope he sues United and whatever police department or security company that hired those goons. “Corporate violence” is an interesting way to frame the argument. What should be done with a person who repeatedly refuses to leave? And then after being physically removed from the plane, runs back on it again? > [@](#): > > Bridges said the man became “very upset” and said that he was a doctor who needed to see patients at a hospital in the morning. The manager told him that security would be called if he did not leave willingly, Bridges said, and the man said he was calling his lawyer. One security official came and spoke with him, and then another security officer came when he still refused. Then, she said, a third security official came on the plane and threw the passenger against the armrest before dragging him out of the plane. > > The man was able to get back on the plane after initially being taken off – his face was bloody and he seemed disoriented, Bridges said, and he ran to the back of the plane. Passengers asked to get off the plane as a medical crew came on to deal with the passenger, she said, and passengers were then told to go back to the gate so that officials could “tidy up” the plane before taking off. [(source)](http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2017/04/10/video-shows-man-forcibly-removed-united-flight-chicago-louisville/100274374/) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/145 "2017-04-10T19:49:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t see that United did anything legally wrong. They were right and the doctor was wrong. Maybe not. This is the rule"\* If a flight is oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority." \* > **[New Video Shows Bloodied United Airlines Passenger Saying 'Please Kill Me'](https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170410/ohare/man-dragged-off-overbooked-united-flight-by-police-at-ohare-video/)** > > CEO Oscar Munoz apologized for "having to re-accommodate these customers" in a statement on Twitter. Note it repeatedly says _denied boarding_ not “_deplaned_”. They fucked up by letting too many passengers get on in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/146 "2017-04-10T19:50:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note it repeatedly says _denied boarding_ not “_deplaned_”… Yes, as I [noted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20128167&postcount=98) in this thread after the post you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/147 "2017-04-10T19:51:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Typically, even non-refundable tickets may be re-booked for a fee up until the moment of departure. I’m sure this varies with airlines. But the point is that you can re-book late enough that they’re not filling that seat unless they already oversold the flight. I’ve never had to do that so that’s news to me! Lately I’ve only flown Southwest for work and there was usually tiered pricing for the options you mentioned. The lowest fare was always the, no choice or changes, no cancellations or refunds. That’s the one I get for work since if I miss that…it’s just me. When I go on family vacations I tend to get the insurance. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/148 "2017-04-10T19:52:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got any criticism for the passenger that decided that he didn’t have to follow rules he had already agreed to follow, then snuck back onto the plane? The rules he “agreed to follow” mention\* denied boarding\*, not\* deplaning.\* ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/149 "2017-04-10T19:52:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why not just keep upping the $ offer? Eventually someone will say yes, and paying a few grand for a big airline is nothing compared to the PR hit and lawsuits from physically dragging a passenger off the plane. My WAG is it sets an expensive precedent, and they wish to not let those numbers get out of control. It’s a risk analysis the least they can pay out vs the most they can get to voluntarily leave, with the loss of goodwill for those removed involuntarily and by force. The cost of that last one, due to cell cameras and social media seems to have gone up quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/150 "2017-04-10T19:55:06Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > The amount of people who are okay with this level of corporate violence is truly frightening. I applaud the airline’s proactive efforts in support of passenger safety! \*(To paraphrase the old joke about how to avoid a risk of there being a bomb on your flight)\*How best might an airline ensure that unknown terrorists will not attack their passengers? Provide your own terrorists to attack them first! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/151 "2017-04-10T19:55:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My WAG is it sets an expensive precedent, and they wish to not let those numbers get out of control. It’s a risk analysis the least they can pay out vs the most they can get to voluntarily leave, with the loss of goodwill for those removed involuntarily and by force. The cost of that last one, due to cell cameras and social media seems to have gone up quite a bit. Very possibly… but IMO, they shouldn’t have the option of relying on law enforcement just to resolve what is, essentially, a contract dispute (especially if, as some posters have suggested, the airline might have violated the contract). ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/152 "2017-04-10T19:55:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not understanding. If I book a flight for $500, I pay for it, and I don’t show up for some reason, my understanding is that the airline keeps the $500. Some airlines allow you to purchase an upgraded ticket that allows you to transfer, re-book, kind of like flight insurance where if you aren’t able to make it, you can re-book. Are you saying that absent that, if I don’t show up I get some of my $500 back? i dont think they are legally (ianal) required to give you any of your money back, but it’s been my experience that they almost always do rebook you on another flight for a nominal (sometimes zero) fee. especially if you do it at the airport. and there are many times that passengers miss connecting flights. mc ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/153 "2017-04-10T19:55:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe you should try hearing what I’m writing instead of whatever it is you are translating it into? You gave a number of “solutions” without finding out if any of them were feasible at that time, and you have still to explain why they should have tried any of them in lieu of following written procedures agreed upon by both parties. I have flown a few times, and I have yet to read and or sign anything that gave me the right raise a stink in public and ignore law enforcement personnel if I didn’t like the situation I was in, nor did I have the option to create alternate off-the-book solutions for the crew to follow. Maybe you should try hearing what I’m writing instead of whatever it is you are translating it into? Because _I have already agreed with you_ that _once we’re at the point_ where they’re asking the passenger to leave, whether he wants to or not, he’s got to get up and leave, and he was wrong to fight it. What I’m pointing out is that starting at that point is basically exonerating United for their total fuckup that got them to the point of saying, “you, you, you, and you - off the plane.” > [@](#): > > You gave a number of “solutions” without finding out if any of them were feasible at that time Oh, gimme a break. Are you suggesting that a limo couldn’t have been hired to drive four people from O’Hare to Louisville? Are you suggesting that the prospect of finding a private plane and pilot to fly them there was remote? > [@](#): > > you have still to explain why they should have tried any of them in lieu of following written procedures agreed upon by both parties. Because in a civilized society, when I’m the one who fucks up and creates a problematic situation, the burden’s on me to try to resolve it if I can. Certainly United had the _legal right_ to force passengers off that plane to fly its own crew down to Louisville, but the airline’s supposed to plan so that that doesn’t happen. And if it does, the airline should be going the extra mile to keep it from messing up the plans of its paying customers. Maybe you don’t believe that old-fashioned notions like ‘personal responsibility’ apply to corporate persons as well as the flesh-and-blood kind. There’s a lot of that going around these days. If so, then we have a fundamental philosophical difference here that can’t be resolved by logic or argument. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/154 "2017-04-10T19:57:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yes, as I [noted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20128167&postcount=98) in this thread after the post you quoted. Yesbut Czarcasm seemed to ignore your post totally so…😛 ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/155 "2017-04-10T19:58:29Z")
I predict that Chuck Schumer will be proposing legislation to amend the passenger’s bill of rights to include not being bloodied and dragged off the airplane once you’ve boarded just to make way for an airline employee that needs to get to work the following day. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/156 "2017-04-10T19:59:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why? Because you say so? Airlines overbooking policy is well known and explicitly detailed when you buy your ticket. The policy works out for everyone involved. Airlines make more money, people willing to pay extra for seats will get them, and volunteers get free shit. The only time that it doesn’t is when someone is forcibly bumped. That very rare occurrence isn’t sufficient justification to ban the policy. I tend to agree with this, but i believe that the amount of compensation legally mandated for involuntary bumping should be considerably higher than it is now. As people have already pointed out, involuntary bumping is an incredibly rare thing, when taken as a percentage of all flights and all passengers. But when it does occur, it can have disproportionately severe consequences for the people who are bumped. Increasing the required compensation would have very little effect on the airlines’ finances, and would make the system more just and fair for the people who are bumped. > [@Bone](#): > > There is very little chance I’d accept $800 in vouchers. When I fly I have plans and other arrangements that would be impacted. A few hours of time and hassle is not worth $800. Make it $5,000 and I’ll start thinking about it. For me, it would depend. If i’m going TO a holiday or work destination, and time is a factor, i would probably reject $800. But if i’m flying home, and have no particular plans for the next couple of days (which is often the case when i’m returning from vacation), i could see myself taking the offer. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Correct. But why should you get to decide to increase my fare prices? I like lower prices and the risk of being put on a later flight. Maybe there are more people like you than me. I don’t know. But why shouldn’t the market decide? Again, i tend to agree, and i think that United should have kept increasing their offer until the market decided. And this is why i would support raising the legally-required compensation for involuntary bumping. I’m almost certain that the reason United stopped at $800 is that the law allowed them to bump someone without paying more than that. If the law mandated, say, a $2500 or $5000 cash payout to someone bumped involuntarily, then the airline would have offered $1200, and then $1600, and probably could have found someone to take the money. But they have no incentive to do that when they’re protected by the law from higher payouts. Or maybe don’t have a legally-mandated payout at all. Instead, make involuntary bumping illegal, and require airlines to keep raising their compensation offers until the requisite number of passengers accept the offer. That way, airlines truly can use market forces to determine how they should balance overbooking and the “auction” system of bumping. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/157 "2017-04-10T20:01:41Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I’ve never missed a flight either, but crazy things happen. Maybe you get horribly sick the day before, or your kid does. Or something else. A couple of years ago on a flight from Japan, I sat next to a fellow who was supposed to fly back the day before - but his train to the airport was stopped on the tracks by a suicide jumper, and he couldn’t get to the airport in time. Not the kind of thing one can reasonably foresee. He was able to fly home the next day for $100 instead of $2000. If my kid gets sick, I’ll eat the ticket if need be. Shit happens. If that sort of information can be communicated to the airline and they choose to believe the guy and give him a break, that’s good customer service. If another flight is underbooked it doesn’t really cost them anything, either. But such a favor should not be expected, and to systematically build it in in such a way that you guarantee overbooks will happen is frankly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/158 "2017-04-10T20:07:30Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > What PR hit? > > Nobody will remember this after this evening. If United can sell enough tickets to overbook, they ain’t gonna lose a cent over this. > > It’s not like people are gonna stop flying. I’ve been avoiding United because of their screwed up terminal at LGA, but this just will make me more sure to miss them. That said, for a domestic flight where I could actually still arrive on the same day, $800 would have bumped me. Probably would take a few hundred more for overnight. Oh, and has to be cash or to a zero fee debit card. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/159 "2017-04-10T20:07:52Z")
When is the proper time to change the rules that both sides have agreed upon? Before a contract is signed, after the action is over and before the next contract is signed, or during a temper tantrum because threatening to cause a scene is how things get done now? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/160 "2017-04-10T20:10:02Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > . . .The fact that over 3,000 people were forced off of flights last year clearly demonstrates that the policy does not work out for everyone… . while i agree that the overbooking procedures of airlines are very user unfriendly, it’s nowhere near fraud or even an unworkable system. united, alone flew 143,000,000 passengers in 2016; 3,000 is a statistically insignificant number. mc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=9)