# United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 10, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171 "2017-04-10T14:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/161 "2017-04-10T20:12:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The literal definition of overbooking is when there are more confirmed passengers than there are available seats. The fact that the additional passengers were airline employees doesn’t change the fact that it was the overbooking provision of the contract that they relied on, and it is this ability of the airline to bump some passengers that is being debated. > > Overbooking is _always_ a “logistical problem of its own making.” Point well taken. But you more or less imply that overbooking with extra passengers is the price we pay for being able to re-book our flight at the last minute for a $75 fee (I’ve done this a few times :)) rather than lose the entire ticket price, so over time, frequent flyers are going to be on both ends of the deal. Yes, it’s of the airlines’ own making, but the passengers are complicit as well - we’re the willing beneficiaries of it. The same can’t be said when the passengers are their own crew. They know where these people have to be, and when; they don’t have to worry that these people are going to cancel. Barring flights canceled or massively postponed due to weather (it was a pleasant weekend over most of the country, I believe), they should have these seats set aside well in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/162 "2017-04-10T20:13:39Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I do, in fact. My information is that a small uptick in United stock prices less than one day into the aftermath of this incident are more likely to be the result of any one a number of factors that have nothing to do with it, e.g. fuel prices. IANAstockbroker, so I’m willing to be educated on this point. > > Here’s an article about a previous United public relations snafu, from 2008: [http://sentium.com/a-public-relations-disaster-how-saving-1200-cost-united-airlines-10772839-negative-views-on-youtube/](http://sentium.com/a-public-relations-disaster-how-saving-1200-cost-united-airlines-10772839-negative-views-on-youtube/) > > After that incident, according to the article, “This tsunami of bad public relations has certainly had an effect on people’s decision in choosing an airline. The BBC reported that United’s stock price dropped by 10% within three to four weeks of the release of the video – a decrease in valuation of $180 million.” > > So maybe we should wait a few weeks to see how the stock price does? Wikipedia gives a more accurate account of what actually happened to the UAL stock price. > [@](#): > > **Stock price effect.** > It was widely reported that within 4 weeks of the video being posted online, United Airlines’ stock price fell 10%, costing stockholders about $180 million in value. In fact, UAL opened at $3.31 on 6 July 2009, dipped to an intra-day low $3.07 (-7.25%) on 10 July 2009 but traded as high as $6.00 (+81.27%) four weeks later on 6 August 2009. > **[United Breaks Guitars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Breaks_Guitars)** > > "United Breaks Guitars" is a trio of protest songs by Canadian musician Dave Carroll and his band, Sons of Maxwell. It chronicles a real-life experience of how his guitar was broken during a trip on United Airlines in 2008 and the obstructively uncooperative reaction from the airline. The song became an immediate YouTube and iTunes hit upon its release in July 2009 and a public-relations embarrassment for the airline. > Musician Dave Carroll said his guitar was broken while in United Airlines' cus... So, it seems that what actually happened last time was that there was an abrupt knee-jerk selloff in the stock for a few days after the story broke, but the stock price quickly recovered (and then traded much higher for unrelated reasons). I would suggest that the market has learned its lesson, that these things have a negligible effect on the bottom line, and that panic selling of the stock is a mistake. So the knee-jerk selloff that occurred last time has simply not occurred this time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/163 "2017-04-10T20:13:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When is the proper time to change the rules that both sides have agreed upon? > Before a contract is signed, after the action is over and before the next contract is signed, or during a temper tantrum because threatening to cause a scene is how things get done now? See, **Richard Parke** r, he _again_ is totally ignoring the vast difference in _" the rules that both sides have agreed upon"_\* between “denied boarding” and ‘deplaning’. :rolleyes: - Using eight words rather the the one word “contract”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/164 "2017-04-10T20:14:16Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I’ve been avoiding United because of their screwed up terminal at LGA, but this just will make me more sure to miss them. > > That said, for a domestic flight where I could actually still arrive on the same day, $800 would have bumped me. Probably would take a few hundred more for overnight. > > Oh, and has to be cash or to a zero fee debit card. If you can find those options listed on the ticket you paid for, or renegotiate the terms of your flight successfully before you get on board, or lobby congress to force them to change the rules in your favor, then…more power to you, and I’ll support you 100% of the way. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/165 "2017-04-10T20:15:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When is the proper time to change the rules that both sides have agreed upon? > Before a contract is signed, after the action is over and before the next contract is signed, or during a temper tantrum because threatening to cause a scene is how things get done now? Was there a temper tantrum in this case? Did the passenger cause a scene (before being dragged forcibly from his seat, bloodied and possibly knocked unconscious)? I haven’t seen any evidence of that. Do you have some you could share with us? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/166 "2017-04-10T20:18:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > See, **Richard Parke** r, he _again_ is totally ignoring the vast difference in _" the rules that both sides have agreed upon"_\* between “denied boarding” and ‘deplaning’. :rolleyes: > > - Using eight words rather the the one word “contract”. Vast difference? Show me a ruling that says passengers may not be "deplaned"because the rules use the term “denied boarding”, and I’ll listen to you. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/167 "2017-04-10T20:19:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When is the proper time to change the rules that both sides have agreed upon? United didn’t have to change the rules to offer more money or more options. There is nothing prohibiting a party to a contract saying, “my bad - I’ll do a bit more than minimally required to make up for my screwup, even though the contract doesn’t say I have to.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/168 "2017-04-10T20:21:30Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Was there a temper tantrum in this case? Did the passenger cause a scene (before being dragged forcibly from his seat, bloodied and possibly knocked unconscious)? I haven’t seen any evidence of that. Do you have some you could share with us? if you can use the term “_possibly_ knocked unconscious”, can I use the term “temper tantrum”? The link provided already shows that he “caused” a scene" by grabbing his seat while screaming and yelling. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/169 "2017-04-10T20:22:03Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Wikipedia gives a more accurate account of what actually happened to the UAL stock price. > > [United Breaks Guitars - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Breaks_Guitars) > > So, it seems that what actually happened last time was that there was an abrupt knee-jerk selloff in the stock for a few days after the story broke, but the stock price quickly recovered (and then traded much higher for unrelated reasons). > > I would suggest that the market has learned its lesson, that these things have a negligible effect on the bottom line, and that panic selling of the stock is a mistake. So the knee-jerk selloff that occurred last time has simply not occurred this time. That’s good information, thank you. I think it’s too early to see if this new event will cause a similar dip or a rise, is my main point. The fact that the stock rose 1% today probably has nothing to do with this incident - we’ll see in a week or two if there is any lasting effect. I’ll also add that stock price is not the only indicator to consider. I think many people will think twice about flying on United because of this (whether you think that’s fair or not). I already never fly United based on previous reports I’ve heard about their reliability and service - this is just icing for me. Reputation matters. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/170 "2017-04-10T20:23:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > United didn’t have to change the rules to offer more money or more options. There is nothing prohibiting a party to a contract saying, “my bad - I’ll do a bit more than minimally required to make up for my screwup, even though the contract doesn’t say I have to.” They only offered the minimum? I thought the minimum was the first offer they gave, not the second or third. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/171 "2017-04-10T20:25:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Vast difference? Show me a ruling that says passengers may not be "deplaned"because the rules use the term “denied boarding”, and I’ll listen to you. They dont. But as Richard Parker points out, the rules allow for a passenger to be "denied boarding’. They dont allow deplaning and the rules differentiate the two. I also cant show you a ruling that says passengers may not be \*beaten ala Airplane!\*\*, _given a triple wedgy_, or anything else- because the rules \*only \*allow them to “deny boarding” not triple wedgies. :rolleyes: “Denied Boarding” is the _sole legal remedy_ the contract allows in the circumstance. \*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc) ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/172 "2017-04-10T20:28:58Z")
I’d like to know what was going on in Louisville that no one would take the $800 to be moved to a different flight 😁. The guy should’ve followed the directive, but it does seem like extreme measures were taken when he refused. Don’t airlines have other methods of dealing with these situations? He wasn’t a threat to anyone he was just screwing the airline for overbooking. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/173 "2017-04-10T20:31:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They dont. But as Richard Parker points out, the rules allow for a passenger to be "denied boarding’. They dont allow deplaning and the rules differentiate the two. > > I also cant show you a ruling that says passengers may not be \*beaten ala Airplane!\*\*, _given a triple wedgy_, or anything else- because the rules \*only \*allow them to “deny boarding” not triple wedgies. :rolleyes: > > “Denied Boarding” is the _sole legal remedy_ the contract allows in the circumstance. > > \*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc) So you can’t come up with a single case where a passenger was deplaned under a deboarding rule and it was ruled to be unlawful? Over the last ten years there have been a couple of hundred _million_ flights-can you find one case where this problem has come up? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/174 "2017-04-10T20:32:55Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > …The fact that the stock rose 1% today probably has nothing to do with this incident… Of course. I wasn’t suggesting that the market had perversely extracted _good_ news for UAL from this. That’s why I posted the airline index for comparison. I was just noting that, so far, there has been no selloff. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/175 "2017-04-10T20:35:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They only offered the minimum? I thought the minimum was the first offer they gave, not the second or third. According to **Jackmannii** ’s post #135, it looks like the minimum is 4x the one-way fare, or $1350, whichever is less. So we don’t know what the minimum was, unless we know the one-way fare. (Which on most airlines, is about 95% of the round-trip fare. Which varies considerably.) But you have no reason to believe that United started off by offering the minimum legally required as involuntary compensation. If people are willing to accept less than that of their own volition, that’s certainly no problem with me or them or the law, for that matter. So there’s no reason to assume they’d offered even the minimum at first. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/176 "2017-04-10T20:39:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > if you can use the term “_possibly_ knocked unconscious”, can I use the term “temper tantrum”? The link provided already shows that he “caused” a scene" by grabbing his seat while screaming and yelling. No you can’t, because the video shows evidence\* that he was possibly unconscious, as do eyewitness reports, while you have provided bupkis for a temper tantrum. Maybe he did throw one, but I haven’t seen evidence of that yet. \*I’m not a doctor and I wasn’t there, which is why I said “possibly.” He looks out cold in the video and at least one witness said, “It looked like it knocked him out.” Cite: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/04/10/a-man-wouldnt-leave-an-overbooked-united-flight-so-he-was-dragged-off-battered-and-limp/?utm\_term=.e567b5058322](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/04/10/a-man-wouldnt-leave-an-overbooked-united-flight-so-he-was-dragged-off-battered-and-limp/?utm_term=.e567b5058322) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/177 "2017-04-10T20:40:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As for lawsuits, they don’t have to succeed to cost the airline money, and witnesses might well sue (for trauma or whatever) as well as the passenger who was removed. Oh, please. How did the other passengers suffer any “trauma”? ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/178 "2017-04-10T20:41:53Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Of course. I wasn’t suggesting that the market had perversely extracted _good_ news for UAL from this. That’s why I posted the airline index for comparison. I was just noting that, so far, there has been no selloff. Then we are in agreement, good sir (or ma’am). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/179 "2017-04-10T20:43:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So you can’t come up with a single case where a passenger was deplaned under a deboarding rule and it was ruled to be unlawful? Over the last ten years there have been a couple of hundred _million_ flights-can you find one case where this problem has come up? Unlawful?:dubious: Who said anything about 'unlawful"? Certainly the Airline can order you off their plane. But unless they follow their end of the contract- you _can_ sue. Man sues airline has 11,900,000 hits. Pretty fucking common. You were all het up about the guy following " the rules that both sides have agreed upon". Well,\* the airline\* failed to follow that rule. The airline had a contractual right to _deny him boarding._ ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171/180 "2017-04-10T20:44:32Z")
United should have had their employees book commercial flights on another airline. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-airlines-brutally-removes-passenger-after-overbooking-flight/784171.md?page=10)