United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight

[Ravenman]

@rat_avatar

But apparently that is “too hard” or “impossible” despite the fact that scheduling resources, and being prepared to deal with contingencies is kind of a required core skill for an Airline to succeed…luckily for UA in this environment customer service is not a required skill in that industry.

See my earlier post of FAA data. About 3,000 passengers per month are involuntarily bumped from airplanes to make room for crew or higher priority customers. And as I mentioned, one of the biggest offenders of this practice is an airline that NEVER overbooks flights, strongly indicating that JetBlue only bumps passengers to accommodate flight crews that need to move somewhere.

Given all of that, the facts strongly indicate that scheduling resources is a challenging task for virtually all airlines, and that one of the risks of failing to move a crew to where it is needed is that an entire flight may be cancelled if a few people on another flight do not make room for a flight crew.

@Some_Call_Me.Tim

Let’s review.

Yes, let’s review. You said that “It was not the passengers’ responsibility to adequately staff the Louisville airport to accomplish United’s business requirements,” and that if a corporation “utterly fails” to “hire sufficient staff located in in the proper areas to accomplish the tasks needed by the corporation” then “competently run corporations will out-compete those who fail at the very basics of staffing.”

I challenged your implicit assumption that other airlines maintained additional crews at airports for such contingencies, to “obviate the need to move a crew to different airports to address unexpected contingencies,” and whether United’s need to move crews was a “sign of incompetent management.”

You responded that you never said such a thing, then I basically asked whether you acknowledge that it is routine for airlines to move crews around. You ignored that question – which I think is a very reasonable one – and asked me to point out where you raised the issue of incompetence.

I did, and even passed over the part where you said that “competent” airlines would succeed over their competitors.

Cutting to the chase, I’ll rephrase my original questions which have been dodged for almost two pages:

1. Do you agree that it is routine for airlines to have crew shortfalls at various airports for all manner of reasons that are often outside of the airlines’ control?
2. Do you agree that, to fill these holes, airlines rely on moving crews around to these airports as situations develop, rather than making a practice of having standby crews at the ready at a large number of airports, just in case?
3. Do you agree that needing to move a crew to an airport on an urgent basis is not prima facie evidence of incompetence or mismanagement?

I will completely acknowledge that there are different views of whether United dealt with this one passenger correctly or not. But the post that I initially quoted appeared to state that United was at fault for needing to move a crew at all. If that’s not your position, you could say so, clarify your position, and end this bickering quickly.

[bordelond]

@chorpler

I saw somebody on Twitter say that the flight crew didn’t even end up getting to Louisville on time. Does anybody know if this is accurate?

Don’t know, but the flight upon this incident took place arrived late in Louisville. How late, I don’t know.

…

No way an airline tries this anytime soon, while this is still in the news, would they? This event *has *changed things already, even if unofficially, correct?

[D_Anconia]

@JRDelirious

Quite so. The big deal here, to me, is if in the process of being called in to handle someone who was failing to comply with crew instructions, the police resorted to excessive force; and whether UA is to be held responsible for the excessive violence part, since mere removal would have been within their legal right.

Why would UA be responsible for (alleged) excessive force by local police?

If the police used “excessive force” to arrest a shoplifter at Walmart, is Walmart responsible? Why? Because they called the cops?

[rat_avatar]

@Ravenman

See my earlier post of FAA data. About 3,000 passengers per month are involuntarily bumped from airplanes to make room for crew or higher priority customers. And as I mentioned, one of the biggest offenders of this practice is an airline that NEVER overbooks flights, strongly indicating that JetBlue only bumps passengers to accommodate flight crews that need to move somewhere.

Do you have a break down of how many are crew and higher priority customers or air marshals?

Do you have data based on how often this happens when a plane has already finished boarding before the “higher priority” individuals arrive?

Do you have data on how often these bumped passengers are required to wait an entire day and aren’t offered flights on other airlines with earlier flights?

Or are you just claiming others are guilty of confirmation bias while ignoring your own?

[Czarcasm]

@iiandyiiii

If you’d like – we could also do it without straw-manning about wanting to change the rules retroactively, when most of the discussion is about dumb business practices and how the rules should change going forward.

That’s what most of the discussion has been about? I guess the posts how that airline beat up on that poor passenger, and the posts about how they should have ignored procedure and renegotiated already agreed-upon terms with that passenger until he got what he wanted(small aside-is there ANY evidence that he was just holding out for more money?), the posts that claimed that the pilot had NO right to evict him from the plane, and that ridiculous assertion that the other passengers should have openly revolted-all my imagination, right?

[Ravenman]

@rat_avatar

Do you have a break down of how many are crew and higher priority customers or air marshals?

Do you have data based on how often this happens when a plane has already finished boarding before the “higher priority” individuals arrive?

Do you have data on how often these bumped passengers are required to wait an entire day and aren’t offered flights on other airlines with earlier flights?

Or are you just claiming others are guilty of confirmation bias while ignoring your own?

Why don’t you find the data that supports your opinion, instead of offering arguments from ignorance?

[Johnny_L.A]

@Czarcasm

Yeah…back in the early 60’s when planes were small, gas was cheap and flight scedules were far, FAR less packed I can see loading up that extra plane that happened to be in the hanger and flying a lone passenger that had been publicly guaranteed a flight.
This ain’t the 60’s, planes are a lot larger, fuel is a lot more expensive, and spare planes and crews available at the drop of a hat is a fevre dream.

FWIW, It’s about 260 nautical miles from Chicago to Louisville. (Man, things are close together back there!) In Chicago you can charter a 400 kt Cessna Citation for $2,700/hour, a 311 kt Beechcraft C90 King Air for 1,200/hour, a 295 kt Cessna 401 for $664/hour, or various other airplanes for various other prices. Note that these hourly rates are for the aircraft and not per-passenger. Link.

United offered $800 each to four passengers. That’s $3,200, not counting the cost of seats on a later flight. It would have been cheaper for them to charter the Citation. Not to mention…

United’s stock is falling 2.4% and wiping $550 million off the airline’s market cap.

United is the largest U.S. airline operator in China, and the Chinese are seeing this incident as a racial thing because the passenger happened to be Chinese. Oops.

Yeah, that Cessna is looking better and better…

.

[iiandyiiii]

@Czarcasm

That’s what most of the discussion has been about? I guess the posts how that airline beat up on that poor passenger, and the posts about how they should have ignored procedure and renegotiated already agreed-upon terms with that passenger until he got what he wanted(small aside-is there ANY evidence that he was just holding out for more money?), the posts that claimed that the pilot had NO right to evict him from the plane, and that ridiculous assertion that the other passengers should have openly revolted-all my imagination, right?

Yes, most of the posts are not as you characterized (and I’m not sure if any are about how he should have been offered more money – the “more money” recommendations are about the offers of compensation to all passengers, thus greatly increasing the chance of volunteers, not to a single passenger).

At least in my reading. But I’m not interested in a conversation about how many posts are about this or that. If you disagree with anything I’ve said about the subject of this thread, I invite you to highlight those posts and tell me how you disagree, and I’d be happy to engage.

[JRDelirious]

@D_Anconia

Why would UA be responsible for (alleged) excessive force by local police?

If the police used “excessive force” to arrest a shoplifter at Walmart, is Walmart responsible? Why? Because they called the cops?

And I agree that on the excessive force count, the onus is on the police. But though the attribution of responsibility to UA by the Court Of Public Opinion is not going to be very yielding to you or me, at least it would help if there were some sort of official determination that it is or is not so.

[wolfman]

@Ravenman

but I meant that United Airlines would surely win any lawsuit brought against them.

That is far from certain.

[Czarcasm]

@Johnny_L.A

Yeah, that Cessna is looking better and better…

It sure does…IF that plane is available when they need it, IF it will get them to their destination in time(how fast are they compared to that jet, btw?), and IF the contract between the airline and the crew make such allowances. By the way, that time factor is why bus, train and rental car “solutions” are too silly to even think about most of the time if you need that crew there ASAP.

[iiandyiiii]

@Czarcasm

It sure does…IF that plane is available when they need it, IF it will get them to their destination in time(how fast are they compared to that jet, btw?), and IF the contract between the airline and the crew make such allowances. By the way, that time factor is why bus, train and rental car “solutions” are too silly to even think about most of the time if you need that crew there ASAP.

According to various reports cited earlier, the crew didn’t need to be there until the following day.

[Czarcasm]

@JRDelirious

And I agree that on the excessive force count, the onus is on the police. But though the attribution of responsibility to UA by the Court Of Public Opinion is not going to be very yielding to you or me, at least it would help if there were some sort of official determination that it is or is not so.

Maybe pandering to rabble-rousing ignorance is a bad thing in the long run?

[RTFirefly]

@Czarcasm

Unless you have evidence that they instructed that police officer to act as he did, then what you call it does matter. Do you have anything to show us that they called in people to beat that passenger, or not? If not, what’s wrong with saying what actually happened?

Oh yeah: if you want magic words, “Radical Islamic Terrorism!!”

There ya go.

[SmellMyWort]

@Some_Call_Me.Tim

…

Let’s review.

You falsely claimed that I had said “needing to transport a flight crew” was the action that had indicated United’s incompetence.

I called you out on that, as I had made no such claim that was the reason.

Now you’re making the false claim that I bristled at the term “incompetence”. I did not. I bristled at your false claim that I had cited “needing to transport a flight crew” as the reason for United’s incompetence. At no point did I deny United’s incompetence.

Now you can’t understand why I don’t defend a position I never took, you then falsely claimed I took, and which I specifically told you I never took?

Well, we can agree on one thing, this makes no sense whatsoever.

Newsflash: “transporting flight crew” is part of how “staffing” works with an airline.

[rat_avatar]

@Ravenman

Why don’t you find the data that supports your opinion, instead of offering arguments from ignorance?

I did provide cites, including the airlines own statements. But I also never claimed to be using anything more than the available information. But you may want to re-read your link then quote where I made any claim that matched this description.

Arguments that appeal to ignorance rely merely on the fact that the veracity of the proposition is not disproved to arrive at a definite conclusion

Cites to match the baseless claims would work too.

[Czarcasm]

@iiandyiiii

According to various reports cited earlier, the crew didn’t need to be there until the following day.

What did those various reports say about contractual rest periods before and after each flight?

[Beren_Erchamion]

@iiandyiiii

According to various reports cited earlier, the crew didn’t need to be there until the following day.

That still doesn’t allow for the possibility of complications regarding duty-time and rest-time regulations. We don’t know where they stood, which means that we sure as shit can’t assume that everything was hunky-dory, and since deadhead time (by whatever mode) counts as duty time…

[iiandyiiii]

@Czarcasm

What did those various reports say about contractual rest periods before and after each flight?

Not sure if they said anything. Certainly a reasonable question to ask, just as it’s reasonable to challenge the actions of the airlines with the understanding that more information may come to light.

[iiandyiiii]

@Beren_Erchamion

That still doesn’t allow for the possibility of complications regarding duty-time and rest-time regulations. We don’t know where they stood, which means that we sure as shit can’t assume that everything was hunky-dory, and since deadhead time (by whatever mode) counts as duty time…

Yes, it’s possible that there are other considerations involved. If so, it’s likely such info will come to light in the future. My response didn’t preclude that possibility.