United airlines brutally removes passenger after overbooking flight

And he has a lease, which if he is correct, trumps their title for the term of the lease. That’s the nature of a lease, as I suggested upthread to UltraVires. A property holder can temporarily alienate some of his property rights by means of a lease. The lessor then has contractual rights which trump the property owner’s proprietorial rights.

But the basic point is that the police only enforce the criminal law. They don’t do civil law, precisely because the civil law is outside their area of expertise and legal authority.

Whether or not it applies will be up to the DOT investigation and any lawsuits to decide.

But here are a few recent exmaples of enforcement actions taken by DOT for violations of 14 CFR 250 and other relevant codes.

Here is an example of one recent enforcement action against United for violating this code. This is not related to property rights or whatever other ideas you’re imagining apply here, so you won’t find a black and white citation supporting my argument in this specific action. It is just illustrative of the way this possible violation will be investigated and if warranted prosecuted, regardless of your theory of property rights.

Whether this incident is determined to have violated this or any other code will depend on the facts as the DOT and/or a civil court sees them but there is no question that in such an investigation, “Well, it’s our plane so we can do whatever we want.” will not be an acceptable defense.

Right. The question that needs answered is does my ticket that I purchased through United or their agents, give me a property interest in that seat for that plane ride?

If if does, then United has no right to eject me or use any sort of force, reasonable or otherwise. It’s my seat.

If it does not, then United may enforce their possessory interest in the plane by asking me to leave, and using reasonable force if I refuse. Any contractual duty to fly me to destination X can be litigated in court.

So, does a contract to use an airplane seat grant a passenger a possessory right to that seat?

The argument being used by some people is that Dr. Dao was already boarded and that denial of boarding has to occur prior to the completion of boarding.

If you’re at the gate, you can be denied a seat.

If you are IN your seat you can no longer be forced to give up the seat.

That’s one of the arguments being used. I just wish to emphasize that I personally am not making that argument.

Whether the passenger has a right not to be yanked off a plane is not a property law question. You won’t find the right answer by asking whether he holds a Property right.

Ummm…got any more straw?

You are trying to cut a very fine line of what is defined as illegal. And you have even put “illegal” in the air quotes.

This will almost certainly be settled out of court, so in that context, the legality may not be proven. No way UAL thinks they could win, and at some point they will know what is best for their bottom line.

But, if this did go to court, and Dr. Dao won based on UAL’s failure to follow DOT regulations, would you, manson1972 agree that what UAL did was illegal?

Sorry, I went home for the night, you are still going on about this? I pointed out what law they were breaking yesterday, if not pointing to the specific statute.

So, anyway, the specific law that they broke was intimidation/extortion, in that they used intimidation and threats of penalties, force, violence, and presecution to get him to comply with orders that they had no right to give.

The same as any of the scenarios of a landlord or a car rental reversing their decision to rent you the property, after things have been signed giving you the right to use the property under the circumstances described in the contract, and removing the owner’s right to demand the property back before the contract is up. If your landlord showed up and ordered you out of the house with the threats of lawsuits, criminal actions, and police involvement, he would be illegally extorting you, the same as when this flight crew was using intimidation tactics to unlawfully (in that they had no legal right) force him off the plane.

It seems to me that this situation was not covered by this law; the passengers had already boarded, so there was no question of denying boarding, the plane was not oversold and the seats were needed for non-revenue passengers. That may be part of the reason why the company caved so quickly. (Well that, and the absolute firestorm in the media.)

So when some in the thread keep asking, “What is the law?”, I think the answer is there is no law in such cases. (And I don’t think it’s necessary that one needs to drawn up, as long as people act reasonably in the future.)

Took all night and most of this morning … what you posted is correct. The game is totally different when there is NOT an overbooking/oversale situation.

nm

You’re probably right that the police would pull over the rental car driver, and might force them to bring the car back.

But what then? You’ve told the cops that the lease is invalid, but a contract generally cannot, by its nature, be rendered invalid after it commences by the unilateral decision of one party to the contract. What happens when it turns out that the lease is not, in fact, invalid? When it turns out that it’s just like every other rental car lease, and has been properly signed and paid for, with all of the appropriate t’s crossed and i’s dotted?

You say, in a later post that “The rental company has the title,” and you have been making your argument on the basis of a fundamental belief in the rights of private property. But one of the basic principles that goes along with private property rights is the principle of contract. While private property rights give you the authority to do as you will with your own possessions, the principle of contract also allows people to make voluntary agreements that are binding on both parties. And if you make a contract, voluntarily and for consideration, for the use of your private property, then the function of the contract is basically one that requires you to cede your private property rights (in whole or in part) for the duration of that contract.

I admit that i’m not sure how a police officer would deal with this situation. My guess is that it might depend less on the minutiae and arcana of the law than on the experience and temperament of the particular police officer involved.

But if i were the officer, knowing no more about the law than i do now, but understanding the basic principles of private property and contract, i would look at the title and at the rental contract. And then i would ask you whether you had, in fact, drawn up the rental contract and provided it to the renter, with the intention of renting him a car. And i would ask whether you had accepted a form of payment, such as a credit card, from the renter. And if you were truthful, and answered yes, i would say something like this to you:

“Yes, it appears that you are, indeed, the legitimate owner of this car. But it also appears that you have entered into a contract to rent this car out to this particular individual for a period of X days. The contract itself appears to be valid, and has all the signatures and provisions of a typical rental car contract. The renter has provided you with a form of payment sufficient to cover the agreed-upon terms of the contract. I’m afraid that i can’t treat this like a case of a stolen vehicle. The person in possession of the car has a document that provides him a legal claim to the car for the duration of the contract, and absent a violation of traffic or criminal law while in possession of the car, i have no authority to take it from him. You wil have to seek remedies later, through a civil procedure.”

I’m sure there will be a lawyer along soon to tell me that i don’t know what the hell i’m talking about, but that’s the set of principles that i believe ***should ***apply in this situation.

I linked to the law not once but twice.

The smallest number of person in this case is= 0 *since the flight was not overbooked. *

Next they have to pay cash not vouchers. Next they have to read the passenger their right.

And finally they can only DENY boarding, not drag someone out of their seat once boarded.

Guys the rental car thing is a side issue and a bit of a hijack, can we get back to the actual issue, please?

Yes, in that case, as the Cornell Law Professor said- they have no right to deplane the passenger.
United had stated they denied boarding to Dr Dao based upon the flight being “oversold”. But they were lying. The flight was not overbooked and they also removed him after boarding.

But it is NOT a side issue. You would agree that if Dr. Dao was a trespasser then United would have the right to use reasonable force to eject him, right?

How do we determine if he is a trespasser? We look at whether his contract with United gave him an irrevocable possessory interest in his seat for the duration of the flight.

We look at analogous agreements to see if they are similar or different. Hence the rental car. I think it has been pretty clearly established that a lessee of a rental car has the right to possess the car for the term of the lease. Does a passenger on an airplane have that same possessory interest?

I think he does. He purchased a ticket and was allowed on the plane. The terms of this CoC are revocable, only if the statutory and administrative procedures are followed. It seems as if they were not followed, and United’s revocation of his right to be on the plane was invalid. Therefore, he was not a trespasser and no force may be legally employed against him.

But the reason that I keep flip-flopping is the other side of the coin. Rule 25 only applies to an overbooking situation that was not present here. Does that mean that passengers may not be involuntarily bumped in other situations?

Is the purchase of a ticket an absolute guarantee of space on an airplane no matter what? I don’t think it is. We all understand that we may be involuntarily bumped. The flight might be cancelled due to weather or other mechanical problems.

Imagine if I showed up at the gate with my ticket, and when told that the flight was cancelled due to snow, would I be allowed to walk on the plane and sit in “my” seat because I had a possessory interest in it?

If we accept the premise that involuntary bumping can happen in these situations, and the course of dealing and usage of trade allows these bumpings, then they become terms of the contract when a passenger purchases a ticket. If he is legally denied boarding or asked to leave under a legitimate way of involuntarily bumping a passenger, then he must leave, IS a trespasser and can be ejected with force.

I know I’m on every side of this issue. :slight_smile:

The CoC has specific provisions about cancellations due to weather or maintenance issues as well. Those situations have specific guidelines for them. If you tried to board, or refused to leave in those situations, you are in the wrong according the the contract, and you can be removed in whatever way is necessary to remove a trespasser.

There are also specific provisions for when (situation) a passenger can be bumped, but it is a bit vague in when (in the timeline) they can be bumped.

They were clearly in the wrong on the first, as it was not an overbooked flight, so involuntary bumping is not allowed, and probably in the wrong on the second, as being denied boarding is not (in the opinion of some, including myself) the same as being removed from the plane.

No. I think all you can conclude is that law does not apply in this specific case. I have no opinion as to its applicability in other cases. (Although of course, IANAL.)

I guess my question is whether the CoC contains the sole and exclusive methods for bumping passengers. IOW, does the contract simply outline the methods for solving overbooking issues and is silent on how they resolve other overcapacity issues, or does its silence on other overcapacity issues mean that there shall be no involuntary bumping for those reasons?

A good argument could be made for either position, and that’s why I keep making them both. :slight_smile: