And If I said “Nope, only gonna provide 1 copy” then they could send the police to arrest me? That is what you are saying, right?
I’m not talking about different copies. The regulation clearly states that TWO copies must be provided. Therefore, according to you, only providing ONE copy breaks the regulation and is then grounds for arrest.
You have that backwards. We keep pointing to regulations that would allow the airline to deny a person a seat, whether through denial of boarding, or removing them from their seat. If the conditions in the contract are not met, then the airline has no right to either deny boarding, or to remove someone from the plane.
Due to ambiguities, it is not entirely sure whether being boarded means once you have entered the plane, once you have taken your seat, or once the door to the plane closes, and it starts pushing off towards the runway.
Most are operating under the assumption that you are boarded once you have your seat.
In any case, the entire point of pointing to regulations that deny boarding is that they do not apply in this situation, and if they don’t apply, then they had no right to remove of deny him.
Start with disobeying a police officer, and work your way up from there.
Look, it is obvious here that you have no idea how commercial contracts work, so you should probably just leave it here.
There would be a number of laws you would be breaking, and linking to them when I know that you win’t even read the links complete waste of my time.
But, it would be pretty much the same exact laws that would I would be breaking if I told you not to leave in your car, and when you wouldn’t listen, I slashed your tires.
Lying to a person, telling them that they have no right to be where they are, threatening them with legal penalties, and ultimately threatening to use force and violence in order to get someone to follow the orders that they have no right to give?
If I go to your house, and demand that you leave, under penalty of law, and I threaten to call the cops (who are my friends, not yours) to forcibly remove you from your home if you don’t comply, you don’t see that as intimidation?
Anyway, if you disagree, fine, but you keep harping on and on, as if there
**Manson **-- are you thinking that if you won’t get arrested for doing “something”, that “something” is always lawful?
Or that if violation of a “law” does not have criminal penalties attached, that it’s not really a “law”? You seem really hung up on “Can I get arrested for this?”
They most certainly do-** as that is why United stated they removed Dao.** And, absent anything like Dao being a danger,* that is the ONLY reason they are allowed to deny boarding. *
No, in this case, they would just deny your application.
It is grounds for sanction. They could not just deny your request that you have sent in, but also deny any future requests that you may send in, even if you do them properly.
Do you get that there are different level of laws? Some are felonies, some are misdemeanors, and that there are various levels within those? For severe crimes, they will actually send out a cop to arrest you, but for lesser crimes, they just send you a notice to appear in court?
If you annoy them, and keep sending them your documentation incorrectly, they may decide to push things, and hit you up with a 4th degree misdemeanor or something like that. No cop is going to arrest you for that, they probably won’t even put out a bench warrant, but it is quite likely that you will end up paying criminal fines if you don’t have a good reason for your actions.
I’d still like you to respond with any legal penalties you think I might face for only sending 1 copy in direct defiance of this regulation.
That’s a fun, but ultimately fruitless game. Can you point to some other regulations that don’t apply to this situation? I mean, did you read what you wrote? “I’m pointing to regulations that apply to this situation because they do not apply in this situation” :dubious:
The police officer told me not to flatten the tires? What if the car was out of gas? Would I HAVE to put gas in it too? And if I didn’t the police would arrest me? Get real.
You think people HAVE to do things under penalty of arrest, just because they have a contract. I DON’T think that. I have a contract with a lawn care guy. If he doesn’t show up to perform in accordance with the contract, you seem to think he could be arrested. And if I don’t pay him in accordance with the contract, you seem to think I could be arrested. And if he is in my lawn and I decided I don’t want him to cut the grass that day, even if they contract specified “Tuesday from 12:00 to 13:00” then I can make him leave. You seem to think that I CAN’T make him leave, and even suggest that if I tell him I am going to call the police if he doesn’t leave, that is extortion. And if the police show up and drag him, kicking and screaming, from my yard, somehow I am at fault, since he has a contract stating he can be there on Tuesday from 12:00 to 13:00. Perhaps YOU don’t understand how contracts work.
Doubtful, because you would be slashing the tires of somebody else’s car. I would be doing it to my own car. You don’t think there is a difference there?
You have no right to be posting on this message board. I will sue you if you continue to post on this message board. If you don’t stop posting, I will call the police.
There, did I just extort you?
Try doing that to someone in YOUR house and see if it is extortion
This sounds like your opinion of something you THINK might happen. I say that NOTHING will happen. If you think that something like this would happen, please cite some court cases where someone was fined or charged with a 4th degree misdemeanor for only sending in 1 copy of a document when a federal regulation said they must send in 2.
No. As I said all along, when someone says an action is “illegal” they should probably cite the law that is broken. Not a contract, not a regulation that doesn’t apply, not a lawyers opinion, but an actual law that is broken that makes the action illegal. At least he finally stated something, but “extortion” seems a stretch to me.
Other posters are saying that breaking a federal regulation is what makes something “illegal” And that is why I posted the regulation that calls for 2 copies of a document to be sent instead of 1. I highly doubt that sending 1 copy is “illegal” nor would it result in some sort of criminal penalties.
And as far as I know, breaking a contract is NOT illegal in the traditional sense, but I stand willing to be corrected with some sort of citation, and not simply a poster stating his opinion on what it means to have a contract.
Ever do your taxes?
Ever make a mistake?
I did.
You seem to have missed this, but the reason that it is brought up is because it was what the airline cited as the reason that they were allowed to force the passenger from the seat.
The fact that it does not apply here is exactly the point we are making.
:smack: You do’t understand the difference between acting and not acting? But, yes, if the contract stated that you would give the customer a full tank, and you did not, then you would be in breach of contract. At this point, there would be no arrests, but the customer very well could sue you for not holding up your end of the contract.
If you instead of slashing the tires, instead siphoned out the gas in front of the cop, I think you’d be spending the night in jail there too.
No, I am pretty good, you just don’t seem to be getting it.
The point is, is that if you have a contract, then you do have certain obligations, and certain rights. If the contract says the renter can have the car, except for under certain circumstances, then unless those circumstances are met, then you cannot take it back, same with a plane seat.
A contract outlines benefits and liabilities between the parties. A lawn contract by its nature is going to be very different from a regulated contract with a commercial carrier or rental agency.
Do you accept that if you have a contract with your lawn guy, and you pay him up front, and he never shows up, and refuses to give you back your money, you can get the legal system involved there? How about the other way, you were supposed to pay him, but you didn’t, can he get the law involved?
The entire point is that you would be slashing the tires of a car that is legally in someone else’s possession. The fact that it is your property does not matter in the slightest. If you are a landlord who wants someone out of the house, can you bust out the windows to make it unlivable?
If I borrow your car, and someone slashes the tires while I m in it, was the crime only committed against you, or are you sure there wasn’t a crime committed against me as well?
If you were serious, and I had good reason to believe that you would be able to back it up, then yes.
Also, if you were serious, then you just committed a pretty major board infraction, which I would avoid, even as a joke.
I doubt anyone would be so stupid as to follow that course of action. But, yeah, if you kept sending them documentation incorrectly, after they told you that you will not be receiving grants at all for your failure to provide accurate documentation, then you are not harassing them.
Do you need a cite that harassment is a crime?
First, let me remind you of what you said:
Do you understand the difference between “asking” and “making” or “ordering”?
They had every right to ask him to get off, in return for consideration such as a voucher or a check. Not one person has denied that. People who have accused the airline of breaking the rules have said that they had no right to make him get off. Not the same thing.
Here’s an analogy that might make things clearer for you, and it even relates to the issue of law enforcement.
There are certain circumstances under which a police officer has the right to detain you on the street. In order to detain you, the officer needs some sort of reasonable articulable suspicion. He can’t just grab people on the street at random, or at least he shouldn’t. If you are detained, you generally have the right not to answer any questions that the officer might ask you. There are exceptions in some jurisdictions, which require you to identify yourself when asked, but even then you don’t have to answer further questions, and the officer can’t keep you indefinitely in order to pressure you to cooperate.
And yet there is no law that says that an officer can’t walk up to you on the street and ask you a question, and no law that says an officer can’t request your cooperation with an investigation, even if your are not a suspect or in any way involved. The fact that you have the right to refuse certain requests, and the fact that the officer might not always have the right to detain you or force you to cooperate, doesn’t mean that the officer isn’t allowed to request your voluntary assistance.
The Dunning-Kruger Effect on full display. Not everything which violates a law is a criminal offense. In fact, most laws are not criminal in nature.
For example, 21 CFR §202, et seq., regulates the advertising of drugs. Broadcasting a noncompliant ad for a drug is not a criminal offense. The police won’t come and arrest you. It is a civil infraction, and the FDA will come and fine you (and affected patients may come and sue you).
Airline boarding regulations work the same way. Denying boarding or removing a passenger in a manner which does not comply with the relevant code entries isn’t a crime, but it’s still illegal.
To use another example, your county or municipality most likely has a zoning scheme which says your house is a residential plat which cannot be used for primarily commercial purposes. If you open a store in your living room, you are violating the law. That doesn’t mean they’re going to come and arrest you.
Illegal does not mean “criminally punishable.” It means unauthorized by law. You’re welcome.
Has nothing to do with my question, irrelevant.
You may have missed it, but I don’t give a shit what the airline cited. I was asking YOU for the law that YOU said was broken when you said the aircrew actions were illegal.
I agree, I would be in breach of contract. I don’t agree that it would be “illegal”
And I disagree.
And I disagree. I CAN take it back, but would face a lawsuit for breach of contract.
I can send the cops to MAKE him cut the grass? He can have the cops arrest me for not paying him?
I don’t believe this is true.
Yes, you can. And you will be sued. Unless there is a LAW specifically outlawing that action in which case you will be arrested.
I don’t think I have, but if so, then I guess you would be correct that telling a person you will call the police is threatening them with bodily harm, and will take the warning.
I see. So in your opinion, who MADE him get off the plane? The aircrew, or the police that eventually came on board?
Fair enough. So, in your opinion, if someone commits a civil infraction, then what they did is “illegal” but they haven’t committed a crime?
Both of them.
If you park your car in front of my driveway, and i call a tow truck to remove it, then both i and the tow truck driver are responsible, in some important ways, for the removal. The order behind the removal comes from me, and to driver is the one who physically enforces the order and drags the car away.
You kept asking why the contract was brought up, and what it had to do with anything. So, you do give a shit, you just were wrong about why you gave a shit, and rather than admit that you were wrong, you now claim to not care. Got it.
You could take it back without commiting a crime, yes, but in the nature of takng it back, you could commit a crime. If someone takes my car iwthout my permission, I have some options that I can do, to protect my property from theft. If someone takes your car with your permission and a contract, you do not have those options. If you use the options availbe to you in the case of teft when the car is being taken by it’s rightful possesor, you could very well commit a crime.
If you simply ask for it back, or even steal it back, that’s just civil. If you threaten or take violent action, tht’s criminal.
You can send cops to make him pay you back the money that you paid in advance, and yes, he could absolutely have the cops arrest you for not paying him. (It would take a while, where he would sue, get a judgment, and then if you refused to pay, you would be violating court orders, and I assume that even you get that you can be arrested for violating court orders.)
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I don’t believe this is true.
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Doesn’t matter what you believe, slashing the tires of a car in someone else’s possession is criminal mischief at the least, and if witnessed by a cop, will get you arrested.
It is hard to find a case study about this, because no one is stupid enough to perform these actions.
Depends on if anyone is home at the time. If ou do it while they are home, then you risk uite a number of infractions about intimidation or violence. If you do it while they are away, it’s still mischief and vandalism.
Threatening lawsuits or police action against other posters is an insta-ban offense. Like I said, you were not being serious, and kinda making a hypothetical, so I doubt that any action would be taken, but I wouldn’t go there, even as a joke.
Let’s say I’m your landlord, and I want you out of the house that you are renting and still have months on your lease. You have paid your rent on time, and you have followed all the rules of the lease, but I want the house back for my purposes.
If I lie to you, and tell you you have no right to be there, and then threaten to call up my cop friend to evict you by force, then yes, I am using intimidation on you, and attempting to extort something from you that I have no right to. This is breaking the law, and there are criminal penalties.
Anyway, we have digressed, because of your obsession with a word that I used, and even offered to soften, if it made you feel better, but as you have continued to harp on this one word, even though the conversation certainly does not in any way hinge on the use of that word, I have done my best to explain not only why I used that word, but to explain that not only were they in violation of the contract, but that they were actually breaking criminal law aw well.
I take it that you don’t agree, but your only argument against it is that you don’t agree, or don’t believe, or don’t understand, and while I have quite a bit of patience, I am starting to think that you are not actually looking for the answers to the questions that you are asking.
This seems a stretch to me. In your scenario, you say the answer to the question “Who towed the car” is “Both of us did”??
A simple answer by you at the beginning on which law was being broken could have avoided all this. Only after pages of you doing everything BUT stating the law that was broken, did you come up with your half-assed “extortion” excuse.
But whatever. We’ll see if the aircrew gets charged with extortion. If they do, then you were right, congratulations.
If not, then you were wrong. So be it.
Both are responsible for the car being towed.
I did give a simple answer, in reply to your very first “WHAT is ILLEGAL?” question. I even offered to soften it a bit to unlawful at that time, if it would make you feel better. I am sorry, but I then shortly went home, where I have better things to do than be here. The next day, I pointed out the specific law that I felt they were breaking, linking to illinois criminal code and everything. At that time, I even admitted that it was a bit of a stretch, and that it would be unlikely for the Dr. to press charges, but that their behavior did in fact check off pretty much all the boxes in the illinois criminal code for intimidation/extortion.
If you walk across the street against the light, did you jaywalk,or did you only jaywalk when you are charged with it?
And in any case, the whole thing started because you didn’t like the word “illegal” used to describe the flight crew’s orders, which, as has been explained, were illegal, even if they were not breaking a specific criminal law.
Som, even if I am wrong about the extortion, you were wrong from your first post.