# United Church of Christ in trouble over Obama speech. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087 "2008-03-04T20:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/1 "2008-03-04T20:35:53Z")
Seems a complaint has been filed over the appearance, and the [IRS is looking into it.](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120407186207094995.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) At the very least, the church will be out a few hundred thousand bucks in legal fees, but there is an outside chance the whole church will lose tax-exempt status. Now, I’m on record as having a relatively benign view of politicians speaking in church, but this is usually a hot topic around here, and most people seem to feel differently. Personally, I’m of the view that the church by all rights should be allowed to keep its tax-exempt status. However, this was too close to the line according to the law, and Obama made this a problem by straying from church topics and [explicitly campaigning during the speech.](http://www.ucc.org/news/significant-speeches/a-politics-of-conscience.html) > [@](#): > > Our conscience can’t rest so long as 37 million Americans are poor and forgotten by their leaders in Washington and by the media elites. We need to heed the biblical call to care for “the least of these” and lift the poor out of despair. That’s why I’ve been fighting to expand the Earned Income Tax Credit and the minimum wage. If you’re working forty hours a week, you shouldn’t be living in poverty. But we also know that government initiatives are not enough. Each of us in our own lives needs to do what we can to help the poor. And until we do, our conscience cannot rest. > > Our conscience cannot rest so long as nearly 45 million Americans don’t have health insurance and the millions more who do are going bankrupt trying to pay for it. I have made a solemn pledge that I will sign a universal health care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family’s premiums by up to $2500 a year. That’s not simply a matter of policy or ideology – it’s a moral commitment. > > And until we stop the genocide that’s being carried out in Darfur as I speak, our conscience cannot rest. This is a problem that’s brought together churches and synagogues and mosques and people of all faiths as part of a grassroots movement. Universities and states, including Illinois, are taking part in a divestment campaign to pressure the Sudanese government to stop the killings. It’s not enough, but it’s helping. And it’s a testament to what we can achieve when good people with strong convictions stand up for their beliefs. > > And we should close Guantanamo Bay and stop tolerating the torture of our enemies. Because it’s not who we are. It’s not consistent with our traditions of justice and fairness. And it offends our conscience. > > But we also know our conscience cannot rest so long as the war goes on in Iraq. It’s a war I’m proud I opposed from the start – a war that should never have been authorized and never been waged. I have a plan that would have already begun redeploying our troops with the goal of bringing all our combat brigades home by March 31st of next year. The President vetoed a similar plan, but he doesn’t have the last word, and we’re going to keep at it, until we bring this war to an end. Because the Iraq war is not just a security problem, it’s a moral problem. > > And there’s another issue we must confront as well. Today there are 12 million undocumented immigrants in America, most of them working in our communities, attending our churches, and contributing to our country. > > Now, as children of God, we believe in the worth and dignity of every human being; it doesn’t matter where that person came from or what documents they have. We believe that everyone, everywhere should be loved, and given the chance to work, and raise a family. > > But as Americans, we also know that this is a nation of laws, and we cannot have those laws broken when more than 2,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. We cannot ignore that we have a right and a duty to protect our borders. And we cannot ignore the very real concerns of Americans who are not worried about illegal immigration because they are racist or xenophobic, but because they fear it will result in lower wages when they’re already struggling to raise their families. He made campaign promises and policy statements - and that crossed the line. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/2 "2008-03-04T20:48:25Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Seems a complaint has been filed over the appearance, and the [IRS is looking into it.](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120407186207094995.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) At the very least, the church will be out a few hundred thousand bucks in legal fees, but there is an outside chance the whole church will lose tax-exempt status. **Now, I’m on record as having a relatively benign view of politicians speaking in church** , but this is usually a hot topic around here, and most people seem to feel differently. Personally, I’m of the view that the church by all rights should be allowed to keep its tax-exempt status. However, this was too close to the line according to the law, and Obama made this a problem by straying from church topics and [explicitly campaigning during the speech.](http://www.ucc.org/news/significant-speeches/a-politics-of-conscience.html) He made campaign promises and policy statements - and that crossed the line. [/QUOTE] He wasn’t speaking in Church. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/3 "2008-03-04T20:50:51Z")
No - he was speaking to the General Synod of the whole religious body. I think you will agree that this isn’t a meaningful distinction. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/4 "2008-03-04T21:01:49Z")
Looks like I have a few gaps in my own education. It’s always been my understanding that prior incidents of the IRS calling tax-exempt status into question revolved around sermons to individual congregations, not speeches to national bodies of a church itself. Am I mistaken in this? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/5 "2008-03-04T21:06:27Z")
I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying genocide, war and hunger aren’t church topics? Perhaps he said “vote for me” in some part of the speech you didn’t quote. Anyhow, I thought the issue was churches endorsing a candidate, not a candidate just speaking. I skimmed the speech and did not find one instance of anyone being asked to vote for him. Mind quoting what you think the politicking is? I have no doubt that someone complained and that the IRS is investigating, though I can’t see the WSJ article to find out who. The issue with Huckabee was that the minister specifically endorsed him, IIRC, not that he spoke in a church. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/6 "2008-03-04T21:16:33Z")
It is okay for the Republicans to garner official endorsements from the religious right, provide Federal funds to faith based programs while supporting a president who considers Jesus Christ the most influential philosopher, creationism acceptable academics, and stem cell research an assault on human life. Now, a church might be punished because a potential Democratic nominee spoke to the congregation? There is something really wrong with this picture :rolleyes: whether there is a legal argument or not concerning the content of Obama’s speech and possible violations of tax exemption rules. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/7 "2008-03-04T21:17:21Z")
[These are the IRS instructions (PDF).](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-07-41.pdf) They are not very clear, but it appears that if a candidate campaigns, then the forum ought to be one where other candidates are similarly invited to speak. I don’t know that the General Synod did this. Again, I’m only reporting about a complaint and an investigation, not commenting on the merits of such. If it wasn’t a campaign appearance, then purely partisan appeals (like, say, closing Gitmo or providing universal health care) are forbidden, and the candidate is enjoined to speak in a more general fashion. It is clear at least that Obama did not do this. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/8 "2008-03-04T21:21:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] No - he was speaking to the General Synod of the whole religious body. I think you will agree that this isn’t a meaningful distinction. [/QUOTE] That makes it worse–if it were an individual church, the entire denomination wouldn’t be implicated. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/9 "2008-03-04T21:23:31Z")
I don’t think the IRS will pull the status, but let’s be clear - if they do, every single UCC church in the country loses it - not just the national body. So you’re right, it is worse. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/10 "2008-03-04T21:29:15Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Again, I’m only reporting about a complaint and an investigation, not commenting on the merits of such. [/QUOTE] Isn’t stating that he crossed the line commenting on the merits of the investigation? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/11 "2008-03-04T21:29:41Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying genocide, war and hunger aren’t church topics? [/QUOTE] He specifically stated that Guantanamo should be closed. That’s a clearly political topic. Still, I don’t see how that’s any more political than abortion, and no one would claim that abortion is not a religious topic in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/12 "2008-03-04T21:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Isn’t stating that he crossed the line commenting on the merits of the investigation? [/QUOTE] No, it is commenting on the content of the speech. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/13 "2008-03-04T21:39:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] No, it is commenting on the content of the speech. [/QUOTE] If the content of the speech is what merited the investigation, and the speech crossed the line, what line were you talking about, if not the line between OK and not OK as far as political speech in religious settings is concerned? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/14 "2008-03-04T21:54:47Z")
Shutting Guantanamo is not just a Democratic position. Even some Repubs that slavishly follow the line want it closed.I do not agree it is a political problem but a moral one in a church where it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/15 "2008-03-04T21:56:18Z")
I indicated in my OP that I wouldn’t support harsh penalties for the church, but that the content of Obama’s speech seemed to go beyond what was permissible. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/16 "2008-03-04T22:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=appleciders] He specifically stated that Guantanamo should be closed. That’s a clearly political topic. Still, I don’t see how that’s any more political than abortion, and no one would claim that abortion is not a religious topic in this country. [/QUOTE] Did the priests who said Kerry should not get communion for being pro-choice get investigated? I don’t recall it. I’m saying that should have been, but it would seem closer to an endorsement than inviting someone to speak. If I were the UCC, I’d invite all the candidates. If they did, and if the others turned them down, does that make it okay? The speech was made 6 months before the first primary also. As for me, I consider the US running a concentration camp where people are deprived of rights and sometimes tortured to be a moral issue, not a political one. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/17 "2008-03-04T22:07:53Z")
If someone can point out to me a moral issue without political implicatons…? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/18 "2008-03-04T22:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Did the priests who said Kerry should not get communion for being pro-choice get investigated? I don’t recall it. [/QUOTE] No, and they wouldn’t - for better or worse communion is an internal Church matter, and the IRS has no say over that. John Kerry is a Catholic, and so has to abide by the church’s decisions, or reach some accommodation with them. There is a fine line here, I’ll admit, and this is largely why I don’t want the UCC punished. However, this doesn’t let Obama off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/19 "2008-03-04T22:19:24Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] No, and they wouldn’t - for better or worse communion is an internal Church matter, and the IRS has no say over that. John Kerry is a Catholic, and so has to abide by the church’s decisions, or reach some accommodation with them. There is a fine line here, I’ll admit, and this is largely why I don’t want the UCC punished. However, this doesn’t let Obama off the hook. [/QUOTE] What do you think should happen to Obama because of this? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087/20 "2008-03-04T22:30:22Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] If someone can point out to me a moral issue without political implicatons…? [/QUOTE] Whether or not I should set out mousetraps. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-church-of-christ-in-trouble-over-obama-speech/440087.md?page=2)