# United healthcare CEO assassinated, the P&E edition {This is not a gun debate/statistics thread!} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 5, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195 "2024-12-05T13:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/321 "2024-12-12T03:54:43Z")
I mean, we need to look at the overall picture. If we’re going to say that it’s shocking that people have a flippant attitude towards the cold-blooded murder of 1 human being, then we equally have to say that it’s shocking that these CEOs and insurance companies are flippant about the cold-blooded killing of thousands of human beings. The only difference between Mangione and the CEOs is that Mangione did his killing with a gun while those CEOs/companies did it with a pen. And those companies ran up a far higher death toll. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/322 "2024-12-12T04:19:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Thing is, Medicare For All (single payer) polls well until voters realize they will be losing the health care plan that they have and are (rightly or wrongly) happy with. So how did every other first-world nation manage it? ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/323 "2024-12-12T04:22:12Z")
I meant the public option. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/324 "2024-12-12T05:14:01Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > So how did every other first-world nation manage it? For Germany, the UK, and Canada, they brought in their plans at a time when health insurance was not a huge business and not so deeply entrenched in the public economy as it now appears to be in the US. I don’t know for other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/325 "2024-12-12T05:52:48Z")
C’mon, how bad can United Healthcare be? [This website](https://www.valuepenguin.com/health-insurance-claim-denials-and-appeals) (quoted by US News and World Report) uses federal data to calculate denial rates for various US insurance companies. Here they are. I calculate statistical averages and measures of dispersion: | UnitedHealthcare | 32% | | --- | --- | | Medica | 27% | | Anthem | 23% | | Aetna | 20% | | CareSource | 20% | | Molina | 19% | | Cigna | 18% | | BCBS | 17% | | Ambetter | 14% | | Oscar Health | 12% | | Kaiser Permanente | 7% | | | | | | | | mean | 19% | | median | 19% | | stdev | 6.9% | Yup, United Healthcare is the worst. They are 1.7 times worse than the industry average, and _almost_ 2 standard deviations worse than the average for those with some statistical background. That’s… bad. Kaiser Permanente is a large operation. They have a complicated structure where branches are for-profit, while the overarching organization is not-for-profit. Anyway, 7% is a reasonable baseline for quality care: United Healthcare is over four and a half times worse. The Anthem Blue Cross data is separated out form other Blue Cross data. JFC. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/326 "2024-12-12T05:55:16Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > So how did every other first-world nation manage it? I don’t know, but I suspect Fox News and the Wall Street Journal played a role in poisoning the US well with misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/327 "2024-12-12T05:57:32Z")
Throwing around the term “socialized medicine” was the way to poison the well as I remember it from the '80s. Since then labeling something “socialism” has become enough. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/328 "2024-12-12T16:06:10Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > So how did every other first-world nation manage it? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > For Germany, the UK, and Canada, they brought in their plans at a time when health insurance was not a huge business and not so deeply entrenched in the public economy as it now appears to be in the US. Fun fact: Truman proposed a socialised healthcare system when he was in office (about the same time the NHS was launched in the UK). It got shot down not because the healthcare industry didn’t like it, but because it would have resulted in desegregated hospitals. Racism fucks up yet another good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/329 "2024-12-12T18:20:06Z")
Well, here’s an interesting development, and a pair of odd bedfellows: Senator Elizabeth Warren and Senator Josh Hawley have announced that they will introduce a bill to require health care insurance conglomerates to divest of their pharmacies, citing the conflict of interest between the insurance companies and the pharmacies over drug costs. > **[Healthcare stocks fall as lawmakers push for bill to break up drug middlemen](https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/health-insurer-stocks-fall-wsj-171647574.html)** > > CVS Health's Caremark, Cigna's Express Scripts and UnitedHealth Group's Optum control the majority of pharmacy benefit management (PBMs) in the US, while their parent companies also operate health insurance businesses. Shares of all three companies... ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/330 "2024-12-12T18:22:26Z")
And it looks like those who think this might be the start of a movement might be on to something: > **[‘Wanted’ CEO posters and other threats emerge after Mangione arrest](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/wanted-posters-threats-mangione-arrest-unitedhealthcare-rcna183867)** > > The killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson has given rise to threats against health care industry workers and executives, as well as police officers involved in the case. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/331 "2024-12-12T18:28:20Z")
One bullet has led to more progress than millions of ballots. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/332 "2024-12-12T18:32:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Racism fucks up yet another good thing. It’s really quite true. If the US was a monoracial country I’m quite sure it’d have universal health care now. But the fear of Black people getting benefits White folks think they shouldn’t will always be in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/333 "2024-12-12T18:33:16Z")
What specific progress has happened in the past two weeks? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/334 "2024-12-12T18:35:22Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > What specific progress has happened in the past two weeks? Well… > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Senator Elizabeth Warren and Senator Josh Hawley have announced that they will introduce a bill to require health care insurance conglomerates to divest of their pharmacies ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/335 "2024-12-12T18:45:10Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > C’mon, how bad can United Healthcare be? [This website](https://www.valuepenguin.com/health-insurance-claim-denials-and-appeals) (quoted by US News and World Report) uses federal data to calculate denial rates for various US insurance companies. I suspect that what the health providers with lower denial rates are doing is promising less and charging more for coverage to begin with, to obtain about the same average of payouts versus profitability. IOW, UHC’s business model is simply to lie more about how good their plans are. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/336 "2024-12-12T19:00:23Z")
There was the whole “we’re not going to cover anesthesia for the entire surgery” that got rolled back tout de suite. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/337 "2024-12-12T19:04:35Z")
Well, “tout de suite” after Thompson was gunned down. The plan had been announced a couple weeks earlier, to not much fanfare. It wasn’t until people started explicitly connecting Anthem’s policy and the murder before they changed course. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/338 "2024-12-12T19:18:02Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Fun fact: Truman proposed a socialised healthcare system when he was in office IIRC, Richard Nixon proposed a socialised healthcare system when _he_ was in office. I think it was squashed by the Teamsters Union because they thought they could get something better. EDIT: > **[The Nixon Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan](https://www.nixonfoundation.org/2015/11/the-nixon-comprehensive-health-insurance-plan/)** > > “Without adequate health care, no one can make full use of his or her talents and opportunities. It is thus just as important that economic, racial and social barriers not \[…\] That outlines the plan. According to [this page](https://www.nixonfoundation.org/2009/08/more-on-ted-kennedy-nixon-and-health-care/) (also Nixon Foundation), it was Ted Kennedy who killed the plan, because he wanted a single-payer system. I’m _sure_ I read that the Teamsters were involved, but it’s been years since I read about it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/339 "2024-12-12T19:21:10Z")
Yes. And? Are you of the opinion that this will pass? Honestly I’m not sure it could even hold up on court challenge if it did. Let alone whether or not that performative bill would do anyone any good if it against all odds did. Theater is not change. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/340 "2024-12-12T19:22:55Z")
Why wouldn’t it hold up? It would be a very specific type of anti-monopoly legislation, similar to the Sherman Act and Teddy Roosevelt’s trust-busting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=18)