# United healthcare CEO assassinated, the P&E edition {This is not a gun debate/statistics thread!} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 5, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195 "2024-12-05T13:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/401 "2024-12-15T02:53:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > What are the aggravating factors and mitigating factors that the judge will not allow? Should the judge allow those? **What aggravating and mitigating factors should responsible citizens and armchair philosophers bear in mind outside of the courtroom?** I think an obvious aggravating factor is the fact that Mangione meticulously planned the murder of Brian Thompson. This wasn’t just some dude lashing out at a random person in an industry he despised, Mangione specifically targeted Thompson, stalked his prey, murdered him, and even planned for a getaway. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/402 "2024-12-15T03:39:29Z")
I don’t understand why Luigi didn’t surrender the police after the shooting. Did he think he would get away with it? If so, that would be really naive. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/403 "2024-12-15T03:58:28Z")
This reminds me of concierge practices, only in reverse. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/404 "2024-12-15T05:23:02Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Mangione specifically targeted Thompson, stalked his prey, murdered him, and even planned for a getaway. [Over](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/) fifteen thousand people have experienced lethal sudden lead poisoning so far this year. About 20% of those deaths would not qualify as actual murders. Still, that is a lot of people being shot to death with malice and/or intent. Thompson is a statistic. Most or all of those other people were not keen to have their lives cut short any more than him. He was just a guy. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/405 "2024-12-15T06:13:07Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > [Over](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/) fifteen thousand people have experienced lethal sudden lead poisoning so far this year. About 20% of those deaths would not qualify as actual murders. Still, that is a lot of people being shot to death with malice and/or intent. Thompson is a statistic. Most or all of those other people were not keen to have their lives cut short any more than him. He was just a guy. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. I was answering a question about what mitigating or aggravating factors might be present at the trial from the prosecution or the defense. Yeah, Thompson is a statistic, but unless Mangione pleads out, there’s going to be a trial. At the trial, those 15,000 other gun deaths don’t matter, Thompson is not just a statistic, and the actions of Mangione in this particular case will be judged. I happen to think the prosecution will use Mangione’s meticulous planning as a reason why the jury should throw the book at him. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/406 "2024-12-15T14:14:04Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > If the UHC plans available were one of the less expensive plans or maybe if I had more severe health problems, I think that I probably would be less satisfied. At work we’re seeing a lot of customers with UHC “Medicare Advantage” cards that let you buy OTC things and “healthy groceries”. They love it, love it, love it! They’re getting something for their premiums! It all sounds very attractive. I wonder if they would be equally happy if they had a major medical issue that required UHC to pay out tens of thousands of dollars? Apparently, the average grocery allowance under those plans is around $150. Don’t know how UHC (and others) is making money on this, but presumably they are because they aren’t a charity. You actually have no idea if you’re health coverage is good or not _until_ you have a major medical problem/cost. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Those with Cadillac plans need to [scroll up to my old post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/325) and check their insurer. If you have Anthem and you think it’s the same as Blue Cross/Blue Shield, think again. Blue Cross is a franchise handed out to various regional insurance companies around the country. Anthem has high denial rates, the average BCBS has lower denial rates. ^ This. Anthem BCBS is a for-profit company that is a BCBS affiliate that gobbled up a number of other insurance companies in the 1990’s/2000’s. Other BCBS plans are independent companies, some of which are non-profit, all of which are different from the other BCBS companies (often the differences are subtle, but they’re there). It can get complicated. I have BCBS of Michigan through my employer, but living in Indiana the paperwork is handled by Anthem. Over the past 2 years I had two major medical problems. BCBS of Michigan was, as these things go, somewhat easy to work with. Anthem was much less so and screwed up for one “encounter” or “service” or whatever the hell they’re calling things these days. Even so, I had few problems with getting the surgery and other services I needed. Then again, I’m the sort of nutball who will insist on getting a COMPLETE copy of the actual policy I’m under. Not the “summary” that is customarily handed out. The actual _policy_, which is typically 40 (or more) pages that detail exactly what is and isn’t covered. These days they’re sending it out as a PDF rather than on paper so it takes up less space and I can use a search function on it to find things. I’ve tended to stick with BCBS plans when I’ve had that option in part because I used to work for the Association arm of the octopus and had a better idea of how things work with them, who to call, procedures, etc. It’s still far too much time on the phone and submitting paperwork to get things done, though. > [@OldOlds](#): > > Some years ago, my brother learned that insulin syringes were $10/box retail at CVS, but his insurer charged a $20 copay for all prescriptions. > > Again, how we live in a place where that’s allowed is beyond me. > > And what is additionally maddening is that CVS, who had to know this, never told him. He found out once when, in a pinch, he wasn’t able to cover them with a script That’s going to vary with the pharmacy “provider”. One reason I stick with the pharmacy department where I work is that they’re pretty pro-active at finding alternatives or letting people know about these things. Prior two of my surgeries I had to use an alternative medication due to my allergies and the pharmacist determined that using an alternative discount program was cheaper than what my insurance policy would have required me to pay (was still $215, but welcome to America I guess). It’s just crazy how variable prices are. That’s one reason that healthcare is anything but “free market” in the US. You can’t comparison shop when you find it impossible, or nearly so, to get pricing information. > [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I have a BCBS plan (I’m retired from the federal government) and have had similar experiences to yours on non-surgery coverage. For surgeries, I’ve had to pay pretty substantial sums out of pocket, but the large majority of the cost was covered. Surgery is just damn expensive! For surgery I asked the hospital about financial aid. They’ll never tell you about it up front but it also never hurts to ask. Had to fill out another stack of paperwork but it probably saved me $30,000 and it kept me out of debt, even though I had to re-do it prior to every surgery. And yes, it’s really best to ask _before_ the procedure if you possibly can, although if you can’t (or didn’t) ask afterwards, along with possible payment plans if that’s necessary. It’s also been my experience that Catholic provider “systems” tend to be more generous with financial aid than many (most?) others. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > There was a story on the cable news today (no cite yet) about Trump’s plans to make sure that every single industry-consolidation proposal put forward is supported. > > Why not just hang every consumer up by the ankles and torture us? It might be more efficient… Please do not give the Trump administration any ideas. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/407 "2024-12-15T14:39:50Z")
The problem with the “killing is wrong” argument, as quite a few people across the world have noted is that the CEO was responsible for killing many, many more people; so it falls rather flat. It looks more like, “killing is wrong” than it does “killing is OK is you’re a corporation but not if you’re somebody hurt by one”. And as a society we’re fine with class warfare but it’s supposed to be strictly top down; the people being made war upon aren’t supposed to shoot back. As I’ve said before I don’t really approve of solving problems with murder, but if we want a society that values human life then we should _actually start valuing human life._ Instead of making speeches about it then treating people as disposable. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/408 "2024-12-15T15:06:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And as a society we’re fine with class warfare but it’s supposed to be strictly top down; the people being made war upon aren’t supposed to shoot back. As I have pointed out to someone IRL that I frequently argue with: If I’m bigger than you, and I bash you over the head and _take_ your wallet, I go to jail. If I’m smarter than you, and I convince you to _give_ me your wallet, I go to my office. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/409 "2024-12-15T15:28:07Z")
From Mad Magazine: If you hire thugs and goons to bust a union, you’re a crook. But if you hire senators to do it, you’re a businessman! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/410 "2024-12-15T15:37:39Z")
“My father is no different than any powerful man, any man who’s responsible for other people, like a President or Senator.” “Do you know how naive you sound, Michael?” “Why?” “Senators and Presidents don’t have men killed!” “Oh. Who’s being naive, Kay?” -The Godfather ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/411 "2024-12-15T16:29:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s just crazy how variable prices are. That’s one reason that healthcare is anything but “free market” in the US. You can’t comparison shop when you find it impossible, or nearly so, to get pricing information. This is such a problem. I have tried to comparison shop recently and in the past for medical procedures but no one has the information available for me to make an informed decision. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/412 "2024-12-15T17:22:35Z")
It doesn’t help there are _often multiple prices for the exact same thing._ Your price for a procedure depends heavily on whatever policy you actually have, and sometimes your own negotiating skills. So several people could get the exact same “procedure” with the following priced tags _for the exact same thing_ - one paying $1,000 (cash-payer with no insurance paying the listed price, either not knowing they could negotiate or unable/unwilling to do so) - one paying $600 (a cash-payer with no insurance who negotiate a 40% price reduction, which I actually have done in the past during uninsured episodes in my life) - one paying $1,000 but covering some or all of the cost out of a Health Savings Account (very high deductible plan) - one paying $800 (insured, but kind of crappy plan) - one paying $300 (insured, plan paid 70%) - one paying $200 (insured, plan paid 80%) - one paying _nothing_ (insured, met deductible and out-of-pocket limits earlier in the year) - one paying nothing (charity case) This is a really insane way to run things and it is NOT a free market system at all. Especially when “choice” of insurance is usually whatever your employer offers, if anything. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/413 "2024-12-15T17:30:33Z")
@Broomstick Excellent summary. The initial problem is locating someone in the system who you can even begin to negotiate with. It’s maddening. And I am a social worker with 30 years of experience navigating systems. For a couple years I had to take on the responsibilities of the Program Administer for managed care and foster children in placement. I knew nothing about any of this but the person retired and it landed on my desk. There were days when I wanted to fire bomb my office and scream in the alley. I am now experiencing similar frustration trying to figure out how to retire and sign up for Medicare. I have decided it would be easier to work until I die. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/414 "2024-12-15T17:40:58Z")
> [@Ellecram](#): > > The initial problem is locating someone in the system who you can even begin to negotiate with. Yes. I struggle with that. _And I’ve actually worked in the industry._ The average person doesn’t have a chance against these corporations and institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/415 "2024-12-15T18:46:32Z")
> [@Ellecram](#): > > I have decided it would be easier to work until I die. I suspect this is the intention, systemically if not consciously. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/416 "2024-12-15T18:52:03Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > > [@Ellecram](#): > > > > I have decided it would be easier to work until I die. > > I suspect this is the intention, systemically if not consciously. You might be right. I figure someone will come looking for me if I die while still employed so there’s that lol. Silver linings and all. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/417 "2024-12-16T03:13:20Z")
The judge talking about “the state of things in this country right now” is a thinly veiled “pressure is mounting for reform and we can’t have any of that.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/418 "2024-12-16T03:18:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > “pressure is mounting for reform and we can’t have any of that.” If by reform you mean “risk of politically motivated murder”, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/419 "2024-12-16T04:04:00Z")
Genuine question: if you’re dying because you can’t afford a treatment that your insurance company constantly denies as unnecessary, and you kill an exec with the company for it, does that really fit into what most people consider “politically motivated”? I assume you, Northern Piper, were not trying to downplay the harm insurance company decision makers cause, both in profiting from letting people die and in influencing the government to stymie changes within the system that could prevent that, but the post you were replying to echoed a common belief that those in power, including the media, actually are consciously and actively doing so. (Oops, and I just realized that we’re in the breaking news thread, not the political thread I also have open. Sorry! Maybe these last few posts should be moved?) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/420 "2024-12-16T04:16:33Z")
Oops, you’re right - wrong thread. Sorry, mods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=22)