# United healthcare CEO assassinated, the P&E edition {This is not a gun debate/statistics thread!} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 5, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195 "2024-12-05T13:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/521 "2024-12-20T12:11:35Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > unionized (applause) ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/522 "2024-12-20T12:45:25Z")
It means “Please keep your very expensive offices and penthouses in our city” > [@DSeid](#): > > Because they are rich. And there are medication shortages clearly resulting from their greed and sadism. I work in pharma. I am proud of what we do. However, we are not without sin. We have figured out ways to stretch patent protection far, far longer than was ever intended, and we’ve become very good at keeping the generics at bay. Setting up a production line is insanely expensive, whether in- or out- sourced. And when you set up a second supplier, they demand a certain volume per year to keep the product active. Which can raise prices at your primary supplier. And in pharma, there’s a massive overhead to running a production line (validation, QC, QA, annual reporting, training, on and on). I’ve been there when the decision was made that we couldn’t justify the cost even though we can’t keep up with demand. So actually, some of this IS the industry’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/523 "2024-12-20T12:59:01Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Then might Mangiones’ lawyer create a ‘Nuremberg’ defense? A one man ad hoc tribunal. The « Nuremberg defence » is « I was just following orders ». It’s an attempt to abdicate responsibility. It was rejected by the Nuremberg Tribunal. Since he acted alone, it’s not even theoretically possible. But interesting that you’ve equated him with Nazi murderers. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/524 "2024-12-20T13:02:49Z")
Of course it is. Interest in growing or preserving the bottom line is of course a factor in how much of what gets made. And therefore shortages of needed medications. (In my section of the medical world alone that list includes from stimulants for ADHD, to asthma controllers, to vaccines, to cancer medications.) So kill you? Or at least your bosses? Cheer that on? Lionize their or your self appointed judge jury executioners? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/525 "2024-12-20T13:06:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So kill you? Or at least your bosses? Cheer that on? Lionize their or your self appointed judge jury executioners? I’ve been pretty clear I don’t support the killing. What I struggle with is that you seem to not _understand_ why some people do. We are in a situation where more and more power and wealth is in the hands of a few, and corporations seem to have more and more influence. What is the difference between being literally owned by a feudal lord and effectively owned by Alphabet? If the people decide they’ve had enough and that the system isn’t going to do anything it should not be surprising when they dust off the guillotines. ETA: I should have noted in my critique the issue is often NOT that we would lose money on the second supplier, just that we wouldn’t make as much. I’m sure many of you have experienced how much some companies worship at the altar of margin. It can result in some baffling decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/526 "2024-12-20T13:15:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The « Nuremberg defence The connection is that most of the folks at Nuremberg never killed anyone, but were executed for mass murder. Thompson was in the same sense responsible for any deaths caused by his company. A defense lawyer can present his homicide as justifiable. It was a form of self defense. It will certainly be an interesting case to follow. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/527 "2024-12-20T13:50:10Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > What I struggle with is that you seem to not _understand_ why some people do. I understand that argument. I understand resentment. I just think it is bullshit rationalization. This is not motivated by anger over power/wealth inequality. The bullshit of it is especially strong in these parts, where there has been much contempt expressed for those who have similar loss of power reasons for supporting Trump, and for hating and wishing harm on those they consider the liberal elites to blame, and the other others on their lists. The 2024 article @Measure_for_Measure linked to (and others) argues that denials lead to “rationing by inconvenience” and that the rationing is borne mostly by the lower educated lower SES groups with the least ability to manage or understand an appeals process. Very likely true and it is a major problem. But the bulk of those on line celebrating this murder and glorifying his killer (or at least “understanding” him) are not angry about healthcare _inequalities_; they are pissed because they, as comfortable middle class folk, have had to deal with denials and poor access _themselves_. That’s what has them viewing a murder as entertainment and he had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/528 "2024-12-20T13:50:19Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > A defense lawyer can present his homicide as justifiable. It was a form of self defense. I’m afraid this is just legal nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/529 "2024-12-20T14:15:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The bullshit of it is especially strong in these parts, where there has been much contempt expressed for those who have similar loss of power reasons for supporting Trump, and for hating and wishing harm on those they consider the liberal elites to blame, and the other others on their lists. Except that’s just projection and fantasy on their parts; the right wingers have always been about victimizing _others._ Your comparison doesn’t work, the people angry at CEOs are genuinely being victimized. You are trying to compare things like laws against domestic violence and material rape to mass murder for profit. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/530 "2024-12-20T14:15:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I just think it is bullshit rationalization. This is not motivated by anger over power/wealth inequality. > [@DSeid](#): > > But the bulk of those on line celebrating this murder and glorifying his killer (or at least “understanding” him) are not angry about healthcare _inequalities_; they are pissed because they, as comfortable middle class folk, have had to deal with denials and poor access _themselves_. That’s what has them viewing a murder as entertainment and he had it coming. What’s your point, that people who have direct experience having their health care access fucked with for profit aren’t motivated by power/wealth inequality? They are the **victims** of power/wealth inequality. Despite the fact that they are comfortably middle class, and have continuous access to health insurance for their entire family through their comfortable middle class jobs, they live with the risk of having their lives turned upside down because their insurance company is profit seeking. They feel powerless in the face of an insurance denial, it’s one of the biggest stressors of people’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/531 "2024-12-20T14:18:59Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m afraid this is just legal nonsense. Of course it is. But consider the antics in the cases of OJ, Rittenhouse and Zimmerman. Just examples of antics, not inviting a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/532 "2024-12-20T14:24:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m afraid this is just legal nonsense. If it convinces a jury it doesn’t have to make _legal_ sense. Just emotional sense. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/533 "2024-12-20T14:28:28Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Despite the fact that they are comfortably middle class, and have continuous access to health insurance for their entire family through their comfortable middle class jobs, they live with the risk of having their lives turned upside down because their insurance company is profit seeking. An apropos meme of sorts: you are _always_ three very bad months away from being homeless, but _never_ three very good months away from being a millionaire. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/534 "2024-12-20T15:00:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They are the **victims** of power/wealth inequality. > > Despite the fact that they are comfortably middle class … They include the _very_ comfortably middle class, the top 10%, the top 5%. They are not angry that there is inequality. They are angry that the inequality is not preventing _them_ from problems with access and bureaucracy. They too have to wait months for a gastro appointment only to have it cancelled and are getting bills that surprise them. Sure they are empowered enough to navigated the appeals process and get it paid by insurance after all, more often than not, but they are getting stressed. Inequity has nothing to do with it other than that they are frustrated because there isn’t _enough_ inequity to insulate them from aggravations. Especially when they already have to deal with the sense of powerlessness against their health problems, despite how otherwise privileged they are. Unfair! The fact that the lower SES, even with the same insurance products, are impacted by healthcare inequalities much more than they are really doesn’t bother them other than in performative ways, if that. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/535 "2024-12-20T15:12:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Inequity has nothing to do with it other than that they are frustrated because there isn’t _enough_ inequity to insulate them from aggravations. I’m sorry, but i don’t think anyone wants more inequity to avoid dealing with the horror of health insurance. I mean, i can’t speak for everyone, but i have been in favor of better access for all, better care for the poor, and a simpler system that doesn’t threaten to repossess _anyone’s_ child for failure to get a prior approval for maternity care. Look, I’m in the 5%, and i feel bad for the guy who was murdered, who could have been my boss. (And was apparently well-liked as a boss and manager. For the record, i liked most of my managers and keep in touch with a few socially.) But our healthcare system is a nightmare. And i also feel sympathy for a 26 year old with chronic back pain who suddenly has to navigate that system. And with the rage that many feel when dumped into that system. And it’s really easy to understand how he became a symbol for an awful lot of pent up range and frustration. (For the record, i also wrote on this board about why normal decent people planned to vote for Trump. I went canvassing for Harris, and spoke to a fair number of Trump supporters. Some were just racists, or nuts. But a lot were sympathetic. Inflation hurt people.) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/536 "2024-12-20T15:14:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The fact that the lower SES, even with the same insurance products, are impacted by healthcare inequalities much more than they are really doesn’t bother them other than in performative ways, if that. Everyone is concerned about their own problems more than the problems of others. The fact that this particular inequity reaches into the upper 5% doesn’t mean their concerns are invalid, or performative, it means the problem is massive. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/537 "2024-12-20T15:58:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > but i don’t think anyone wants more inequity to avoid dealing with the horror of health insurance They don’t care much about others getting less either way as long as they get what they feel entitled to. Inequality has provided for that most of the time. They are not _explicitly_ hoping for a bigger differential between them and the less privileged, any more than the Pharma or insurance CEO is looking to cause stress or adverse health outcomes. They (and I especially include Boomers here) just historically haven’t been that upset, until now, when they are having to use healthcare more themselves. If the inequality was great enough that they got theirs then they’d be just fine. Despite the gnashing healthcare in this country is actually serving more of the population significantly _better_ than it was before the ACA. But yes @Cheesesteak there are _still_ major problems, and Boomers are now impacted increasingly because they are now big consumers. Bankruptcies due to medical debt do not seem to have decreased much, but at least that does not hit the upper middle class as much as those in lower SES … other healthcare inequalities have decreased some but are persistent. New structural problems exist as well, and as much as I despise many of the changes in my industry, and stupid short sighted C suite people, most of those problems are not because of them. Or even because of medical oligopolies, problematic as they are. And even the wealthy are impacted. So they and the middle are angry. Much more about this than those in the lower SES groups … again because on this (and on health problems in general) their relative wealth is not protective enough. They too have to deal with a sense of powerlessness. It is not supposed to be them. So yea a CEO was killed! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/538 "2024-12-20T16:10:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Despite the gnashing healthcare in this country is actually serving more of the population significantly _better_ than it was before the ACA. That’s a pretty low bar. I know two people who died from health care inaccessibility pre ACA. (Plus the woman who decided not to treat her breast cancer.) And with all your whining about rich boomers, they aren’t the ones lionizing the murderer. It’s mostly working class people doing that. You know, the people who risk bankruptcy if they have a major medical problem. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/539 "2024-12-20T16:42:43Z")
I hear it from all circles. Yes the same less educated working lower to middle middle class that voted for Trump out of generalized frustration. To well to do folk in my real life circles. (Weirdly perhaps, a good number of liberal pacifist therapists who get aggravated with poor coverage for their services.) To here, where I doubt all of those defending the reasons for the murder to those thinking it could be thought of as self defense to those outright celebrating it as a blow against the oppressors viva the revolution, are lower educated working class. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/540 "2024-12-20T17:09:35Z")
There aren’t many poster here who are actually celebrating the murder. Like, maybe 3? Most of this board is in the “i think it was wrong, but i understand where that came from” camp. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=28)