# United healthcare CEO assassinated, the P&E edition {This is not a gun debate/statistics thread!} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 5, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195 "2024-12-05T13:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/61 "2024-12-05T18:43:33Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The individuals “in charge” are, well, fungible. They will all make the decisions to maximize profits as they are hired to do, and as their compensation is dependent upon. None would last long in their jobs if they placed bottom line at the bottom. End of day they are a cog bigger than others but still a cog. “If I don’t do it, someone else will” is the kind of excuse criminals use to justify doing shitty things. It’s not a very compelling argument, particularly when the person making it is also making millions of dollars a year from doing this job. It’s a morally vacuous excuse to let them do what they wanted to do anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/62 "2024-12-05T18:43:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sarcasm is hard to read on the Internet --can you clarify whether you’re serious here? You mean provide you with proof? \< blinks \> ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/63 "2024-12-05T18:43:58Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > They recovered three spent shells and three unfired bullets at the scene. Three of which had the words “deny,” “depose,” and “defend” - an apparent variation on what is believed to be a Big Insurance mantra concerning ways to avoid paying out claims, “Deny, Delay, Defend.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/64 "2024-12-05T18:44:43Z")
> [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](#): > > You mean provide you with proof? > > \< blinks \> …no, that’s not what I mean. I mean, are you being super-silly on purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/65 "2024-12-05T18:46:05Z")
Moderating: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Rich people are evil” isn’t exactly a fringe belief. I mean, Jesus Christ, dude. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …no, that’s not what I mean. I mean, are you being super-silly on purpose? Getting personal. You’re not in the Pit. Dial it back, please. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/66 "2024-12-05T18:46:19Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > > [@Eonwe](#): > > > > Anecdotes are worth the electrons they are written with, and I don’t really want to get into the details in this thread, but I have experienced insurance processes that were clearly designed to withhold care as long as possible, and to make it as difficult and time consuming as possible for to resolve the issue, including withholding documentation and flat-out lying about resolution steps. This type of claim denial is indeed immoral, and if it’s necessary for the industry, then the industry is immoral. > > I’m not here to defend the health insurance industry and I’m sure it is possible to find many examples of morally questionable or outright illegal practices. > > The point still stands that there is no such thing as a social contract that all life is sacred. That imaginary contract is fundamentally incompatible with the principle and practice of insurance policies, which are sound and a net social good. I am not following. In what way is a social contract that “all life is sacred” (letting the definition of the word sacred go undefined for the moment) incompatible with the principle of insurance? And what is the “social good” you feel that insurance policies meet that is incompatible with that imaginary social contract? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/67 "2024-12-05T18:46:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Serious question: do you apply a similar analysis to the arrest of drug cartel kingpins such as El Mayo? Yes. As a means to alter the drug trade it accomplishes nothing. Someone else will take over the cartel and if the cartel itself is eliminated another cartel will take over its share. Possibly bloodier in the aftermath. Legal arrest (not extrajudicial execution unilaterally) is warranted as part of justice for actual crimes as agreed upon by society, but are not in such a case a deterrent. The structure creates a hole that other fluid will seep in and fill. The rare exception is when several levels of leadership across the board of players can all be removed, and even then only in a lasting way if the circumstances on the ground change as well. Let’s be clear. There is a huge issue with unnecessary care. Denials are sometimes appropriate. Sometimes aggressive expensive care causes more harm than good and there are guidelines that are more often than not appropriate. These must be done fairly and ahead of time. Hospitals and providers are not guiltless in failing to get approval ahead of time for non-emergencies. And insurers can be horrible to deal with Let’s accept that United is exceptionally bad. The guilt there lies is the inadequate regulation that allows such and in the corporate culture that promotes it. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/68 "2024-12-05T18:47:51Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > In what way is a social contract that “all life is sacred” (letting the definition of the word sacred go undefined for the moment) incompatible with the principle of insurance? INSURANCE SALESMAN: But surely you can’t put a price on your family’s lives? HOMER SIMPSON: I wouldn’t have thought so either, but here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/69 "2024-12-05T18:49:38Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Getting personal. You’re not in the Pit. Dial it back, please. My apologies for the “super silly” part. If I can rephrase, asking the question in all sincerity: @Mundane_Super_Hero, are you offering the theory that Donald Trump hired an assassin as a serious theory, or was that a joke? I’m not asking for proof–I’m just not sure how you intended that post to be taken. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/70 "2024-12-05T18:51:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Rich people are evil” isn’t exactly a fringe belief. I mean, Jesus Christ, dude. OK. So judging people’s morality solely by their wealth is a thing too according to your worldview. Aren’t you full of surprises. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/71 "2024-12-05T18:53:43Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > So judging people’s morality solely by their wealth is a thing too according to your worldview. I mean, yes? There’s a tremendous range of wealth levels I don’t judge, but once a person is holding ten million or so dollars to themselves, yeah, morality absolutely comes into play. (And autocorrect, I really don’t appreciate your changing “morality” to “mortality” in that sentence). The act of keeping such tremendous wealth is a conscious decision, and I’m comfortable judging people for such decisions. > [@Pedro](#): > > Aren’t you full of surprises. No? Again, I’m in pretty good company on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/72 "2024-12-05T18:55:44Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I would like to go on record to say that not only am I 100% behind killings like this, I also think this is the only thing that is ever going to result in change. Some people deserve to live in constant fear. How about these killings? Okay with them? I’m just trying to figure out the parameters of your acceptance of violence for political ends. > [@](#): > > Since the 1970s in the United States, there have been at least 11 murders, 42 bombings, 196 arsons, and 491 assaults against abortion providers. > … > In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a [clinic escort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinic_escort). > **[Anti-abortion violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#)** > > Anti-abortion violence is violence committed against individuals and organizations that perform abortions or provide abortion counseling. Incidents of violence have included destruction of property, including vandalism; crimes against people, including kidnapping, stalking, assault, attempted murder, and murder; and crimes affecting both people and property, as well as arson and terrorism, such as bombings. > Anti-abortion extremists are considered a current domestic terrorist threat by the Unit... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/73 "2024-12-05T18:58:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > How about these killings? Okay with them? I’m just trying to figure out the parameters of your acceptance of violence for political ends. How about these killings? Okay with them? > **[Kings Mountain](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/revolutionary-war/battles/kings-mountain)** > > The Revolutionary War battle of Kings Mountain in South Carolina proved to be a stinging defeat in the British attempt to secure control of the Southern... > **[French Resistance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance)** > > French victory > Central Europe > Germany It is totally reasonable to support certain acts of violence for political ends, and not other acts of violence for political ends, based on what those ends are. Assuming that someone who supports certain acts of political violence must support all acts of political violence does not strike me as reasonable. I say this as someone who doesn’t support this act of political violence. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/74 "2024-12-05T18:58:35Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > “If I don’t do it, someone else will” is the kind of excuse criminals use to justify doing shitty things. I wouldn’t be a medical CEO. It would not be my path to happiness. In the increasingly corporatized medical world I consistently argue that the lack of a sense of being part of something that is working towards a greater good is _bad for business_. Healthcare providers want to do good while doing well. Diminishing that sense results in burnout and both poorer quality and productivity. But our contempt for those who are motivated most by being higher in the 0.1% than they already are is irrelevant to the fact that CEOs are hired to make a for profit company increase in value. Different CEOs will come to different paths of achieving that, but the job is to do that. Not to do good works. Society by way of government and regulatory oversight needs to set the guardrails. Not hoping for CEOs who don’t care about company value and profits. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/75 "2024-12-05T19:00:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But our contempt for those who are motivated most by being higher in the 0.1% than they already are is irrelevant to the fact that CEOs are hired to make a for profit company increase in value. Different CEOs will come to different paths of achieving that, but the job is to do that. Not to do good works. > > Society by way of government and regulatory oversight needs to set the guardrails. Not hoping for CEOs who don’t care about company value and profits. I think there are two related but slightly different discussions going on here. One is, will heaping moral condemnation on this guy make anyone’s life better? Another is, does this guy deserve heaps of moral condemnation? I agree that condemning him (or assassinating him) will do little or nothing to fix systemic problems in health care. But I also agree that discussing the morality of this guy’s actions is a reasonable exercise in calibrating our moral compass. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/76 "2024-12-05T19:05:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > How about these killings? Okay with them? I’m just trying to figure out the parameters of your acceptance of violence for political ends. No. Why would I support that? makes zero sense. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/77 "2024-12-05T19:11:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No? Again, I’m in pretty good company on this one. No. Why would morality come into play solely because of wealth? I don’t think however many millions in the bank really has any bearing on someone’s character, except maybe hard-working and very driven to be financially successful. Or not. But I agree that kind of “eat the rich” sentiment is more common than it should be, and more than a little fueled by base motives. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/78 "2024-12-05T19:15:34Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > No. Why would morality come into play solely because of wealth? Because wealth involves the holding of resources for oneself and preventing their access by other people, and when a person holds egregious amounts of wealth instead of allowing others to access those resources, they cause suffering. If you’re interested in the subject beyond that one sentence, I recommend a new thread. > [@Pedro](#): > > I agree that kind of “eat the rich” sentiment is more common than it should be, and more than a little fueled by base motives. How do you read that quote from the Gospels? Was Jesus just jealous of the Pharisees? If, by “base motives,” you mean “want food, shelter, and health care,” I suppose those are base motives. They certainly form the base of Maslow’s hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/79 "2024-12-05T19:28:22Z")
Rump couldn’t order a pizza. But it fills a lot of holes with pegs that someone in Project 2025 could have or did. Anyone can present a theory, right? Given 1 Police Plaza, The State Police, and the FBI right now have almost nothing shouldn’t we all be allowed to present theories of what and why? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2024, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195/80 "2024-12-05T19:28:39Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > While the publicity given to this one murder, due to the victim being a CEO, is excessive, there is no good excuse for generalizing about men with his occupation being bad people. I am not entering this discussion to argue whether he was “bad” or “good” based on his occupation. I do have strong feelings about the morality of the health insurance business, biased by my own personal experience. I’m sorry about your dad. I’m not sure how that experience relates to my comments. I don’t think medicine is clear-cut. There are often multiple options for treatment for a given patient, each carrying its own risks and possible benefits. Not every provider is going to have the same perspective on treatment, and not every patient is going to make the same choices. My point is in fact that because medicine is not clear-cut, a claims processor at an insurance company is in no position to question the “medical necessity” of a particular course of treatment. They do not know the patient, they do not know the discussions that have been had, and they do not provide their own recommendation for care. I absolutely think that we should be evaluating treatments of questionable effectiveness and considering whether those treatments are where we want to be spending our health care dollars. I don’t think that insurance companies are to be trusted with making the choices there that are best for us as individual patients, and I don’t believe that that mission (of moving the needle systemically on outcomes and efficiency for patients) is given more than lip service in current insurance company procedures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-healthcare-ceo-assassinated-the-p-e-edition-this-is-not-a-gun-debate-statistics-thread/1011195.md?page=5)