# United Methodist Church to Split into Two Denominations over LGBT Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 4, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912 "2020-01-04T02:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/1 "2020-01-04T02:15:31Z")
> [@](#): > > NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — United Methodist Church leaders from around the world and across ideological divides unveiled a plan Friday for a new conservative denomination that would split from the church in an attempt to resolve a decades-long dispute over gay marriage and gay clergy. > > The proposal, called “A Protocol of Reconciliation & Grace Through Separation,” envisions an amicable separation in which conservative churches forming a new denomination would retain their assets. The new denomination also would receive $25 million. > > The proposal was signed in December by a 16-member panel, who worked with a mediator and began meeting in October. The panel was formed after it became clear the impasse over LGBTQ issues was irreconcilable. The next step could come at the church’s General Conference in May. > **[Methodists propose split in gay marriage, clergy impasse](https://apnews.com/article/23750a56d8dd88e68ea343ff4a8cead6)** > > NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — United Methodist Church leaders from around the world and across ideological divides unveiled a plan Friday for a new conservative denomination that would split from the church in an attempt to resolve a decades-long dispute... This surprises me as I thought the Methodists were fairly liberal. But apparently there are strong conservative elements in the Philippines and Africa as well as some in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/2 "2020-01-04T02:39:07Z")
Disclosure: I belong to a UMC church, which is a “reconciling congregation” (that is, we are fully supportive of full inclusion in the church of people of all sexual orientations). > [@PastTense](#): > > This surprises me as I thought the Methodists were fairly liberal. But apparently there are strong conservative elements in the Philippines and Africa as well as some in the U.S. Yes, most of the UMC in the northern US (and much of Europe) is liberal. But, there is a very conservative southern US wing of the church, and that group has been responsible for rallying support from the conservative Methodists in Africa and Asia, to fight against the efforts from liberal Methodists to remove wording in the Book of Discipline (that is, the law book of the UMC) which prohibits Methodist ministers from conducting same-sex marriages, as well as prohibiting those ministers from being practicing homosexuals. The relevant passages from the Book of Discipline ([source](https://www.umc.org/en/content/what-is-the-denominations-position-on-homosexuality)): > [@](#): > > The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church. > [@](#): > > Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches. In fact, the UMC has been in the middle of an internal “war” over this topic for several years. After the UMC was unable to settle the issue at the last General Conference (in 2016), they spent two more years studying it. In a special conference last year, the conservative wing of the church was able to force through their “Traditional Plan,” which not only kept the current wording in the Book of Discipline about homosexuality, but established more punitive punishment for Methodist ministers who went against it. When that happened, those of us in liberal UMC churches were stunned, and it became pretty clear that schism was going to be inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/3 "2020-01-04T03:46:30Z")
No surprise to me. Both the Mrs. and I grew up Methodist (NOT the same congregations, nor even in the same state), and we were taught there early that homosexuality was bad, no question about it. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/4 "2020-01-04T04:58:02Z")
Why don’t all the mainstream Protestants just realign on liberal/conservative lines? At this point the differences between Episcopalians/ELCA/liberal Methodists are far smaller than the differences between say ELCA Lutherans and Missouri Synod Lutherans. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/5 "2020-01-04T05:06:48Z")
The priest from my mother’s church has been instructed not to marry gays. But he flat out told them if a gay couple comes to him asking to get married, he WILL NOT turn them away. And they pretty much have to deal with it because he has a huge draw. His sermons are televised locally in Tulsa if I understand correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/6 "2020-01-04T05:09:39Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Why don’t all the mainstream Protestants just realign on liberal/conservative lines? At this point the differences between Episcopalians/ELCA/liberal Methodists are far smaller than the differences between say ELCA Lutherans and Missouri Synod Lutherans. There’s a whole bunch of other issues that can cause church splits, or (in this case) prevent denominations from merging. Mode and method of baptism, liturgy, mode of church government, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/7 "2020-01-04T05:11:04Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > The priest from my mother’s church has been instructed not to marry gays. But he flat out told them if a gay couple comes to him asking to get married, he WILL NOT turn them away. > > And they pretty much have to deal with it because he has a huge draw. His sermons are televised locally in Tulsa if I understand correctly. Episcopal or Catholic? The first one is hard to grasp because the Episcopalians are the most friendly LGBT church out there, and the second is even harder because I don’t care how popular you are, the Vatican ain’t letting priests even think of same sex marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/8 "2020-01-04T05:15:14Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Episcopal or Catholic? The first one is hard to grasp because the Episcopalians are the most friendly LGBT church out there, and the second is even harder because I don’t care how popular you are, the Vatican ain’t letting priests even think of same sex marriages. Methodist. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/9 "2020-01-04T05:20:46Z")
This is gonna be happening more often in the next couple of years. The Reformed Church of America is bracing for a schism this summer at their General Synod, and the Christian Reformed Church of North American (which, incidentally, was formed by way of schism with the Reformed Church of American in the 1800s), will likely be doing the same at their Synod in 2021. FTR, I’m officially a member of the Christian Reformed Church, currently attending a Reformed Church, and will be following the progressive gay-supporters out the door when this all goes down. I hope, and I think, the Reformed congregation that we’re attending now will go the way of the LGBTQ progressives. They’ve always been somewhat of a rebel congregation (they’re \*Second \*Reformed because the founding members were tired of all of the services being in Dutch at \*First \*Reformed). ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/10 "2020-01-04T05:20:50Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Methodist. How long have Methodists been using the term “priest”? I know they have bishops, but didn’t know they have priests. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/11 "2020-01-04T05:47:22Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > How long have Methodists been using the term “priest”? I know they have bishops, but didn’t know they have priests. The United Methodist Church doesn’t refer to its clergy as “priests” – they’re typically referred to as “pastors,” though it appears that the technical term is “[elder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_(Methodist))” (though I also know Methodist deacons). ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/12 "2020-01-04T05:58:56Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Why don’t all the mainstream Protestants just realign on liberal/conservative lines? At this point the differences between Episcopalians/ELCA/liberal Methodists are far smaller than the differences between say ELCA Lutherans and Missouri Synod Lutherans. Churches don’t join based on one issue, they are theologically and polity distinct. That said, Canada had the Methodist, Congregational, and Presbyterian churches form, and Methodism is (historically) theologically very different from the other two. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/13 "2020-01-04T06:08:03Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > How long have Methodists been using the term “priest”? I know they have bishops, but didn’t know they have priests. You’ll have to forgive me. I’m an atheist that doesn’t take much interest in religion. This was a conversation I had in passing with my mother. We didn’t get into the details. And I obviously got the labels wrong. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/14 "2020-01-04T07:41:06Z")
Question: which has more members, the more liberal UMC churches or the more conservative ones? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/15 "2020-01-04T08:30:35Z")
So calling it the United Methodist Church is a bit of a misnomer, yes? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/16 "2020-01-04T08:51:59Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Question: which has more members, the more liberal UMC churches or the more conservative ones? In the US? It’s a pretty “liberal” denomination, far cry from their roots. Some of the really conservative (politically and theologically) ones are already in the non-UMC Methodists and have been for generations. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/17 "2020-01-04T08:53:21Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > No surprise to me. Both the Mrs. and I grew up Methodist (NOT the same congregations, nor even in the same state), and we were taught there early that homosexuality was bad, no question about it. What do you and she believe now, in today’s society? Just curious…Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/18 "2020-01-04T08:58:21Z")
double post, my bad! ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/19 "2020-01-04T11:48:51Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > So calling it the United Methodist Church is a bit of a misnomer, yes? No, the name is because of a merger: > [@](#): > > The Methodist Church was the official name adopted by the Methodist denomination formed in the United States by the reunion on May 10, 1939, of the northern and southern factions of the Methodist Episcopal Church (which had split earlier in 1844 over the issue of slavery and the impending Civil War in America. During the American Civil War, the denomination was known briefly as The Methodist Episcopal Church in the Confederate States of America) along with the earlier separated Methodist Protestant Church of 1828… > > The Methodist Church then later merged with the Evangelical United Brethren Church on April 23, 1968, to form “The United Methodist Church” with its headquarters, offices and publishing houses in Nashville, Tennessee. > **[Methodist Church (United States)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodist_Church_(USA))** > > The Methodist Church was the official name adopted by the Methodist denomination formed in the United States by the reunion on May 10, 1939, of the northern and southern factions of the Methodist Episcopal Church along with the earlier separated Methodist Protestant Church of 1828. The Methodist Episcopal Church had split in 1844 over the issue of slavery and the impending Civil War in America. During the American Civil War, the southern denomination was known briefly as The Methodist Episcopa It... ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/20 "2020-01-04T14:14:55Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > No surprise to me. Both the Mrs. and I grew up Methodist (NOT the same congregations, nor even in the same state), and we were taught there early that homosexuality was bad, no question about it. Sunflower and I were raised Roman Catholic and taught the same thing. Of course there was a percentage of those who were doing the teaching during the day and molesting altar boys in the evening. Not to mention the organizational cover up extending clear to the Vatican. We are now Episcopal [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912.md?page=2)